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Without naming names to protect the innocent is it legal to place a deposit on a firearm if you do not have a suitable slot on your FAC?

Furthermore if a deposit is taken and the firearm is deemed "sold" should the firearms dealer not remove the firearm from their website and any other web outlet such as Gunstar or at least show the firearm is under offer?

Surely the dealer is in breach for advertising something that they have already sold?

The dealer simply has taken a firearm off general sale and is awaiting a suitable buyer,that person has left a retainer in the the gift of a deposit of cash to help the dealer sway it....

I'm sure the dealer holding on to it for you until your slot comes through is in no way breaking any laws as you've not attempted to actually buy it! Besides the dealer won't sell it without you having the right slot anyway!

Yes u intend to buy,but are awaiting correct paperwork to comply with the law....

This is how it works in Northern Ireland - you have to buy the firearm THEN apply for the slot; showing receipt and serial number.

Perfectly fine.

There was a bizarre discussion about this a few weeks ago on Pigeon Watch with more than one person claiming that if you've paid for the firearm (or even just put a deposit on it) you are somehow 'in possession' of it in the eyes of the law, even if the gun is physically hundreds of miles away sitting in an RFDs safe

Blackstuff wrote:There was a bizarre discussion about this a few weeks ago on Pigeon Watch with more than one person claiming that if you've paid for the firearm (or even just put a deposit on it) you are somehow 'in possession' of it in the eyes of the law, even if the gun is physically hundreds of miles away sitting in an RFDs safe

The eyes of the law are stupid. Suppose a friend put a deposit down on your firearm in a private sale, does he now own the firearm? For all intents I thought the general idea of a deposit was to secure the purchase pending funds. Should a sale not commerce shortly after then the item is put back up for sale and the deposit not refunded.

Jury’s out on this one, been mentioned on other forums. I suppose there may be two ways of looking at it, one is that you are attempting to acquire a firearm that you do not have authority for and that could be considered unlawful, the other is that its between you and the RFD or FAC holder and that the 'retainer' is a fee given in good faith to encourage the RFD or FAC holder to take the firearm of the open market for a period of time and its not an attempt to acquire the firearm that you do not have the authority for.

Really up to the RFD or FAC holder selling the firearm I suppose.

another one would be with re. to alcohol, lottery and cigarettes etc, whoever hands over the money, buys it. so you couldn't let your toddler hand over the change. as they would then be buying it.

so how does it stand when your SWIMBO hands over cash for a rifle etc for you. have they just bought a firearm with no ticket / slot?

I always thought constructive possession boiled down to "you can physically lay hands on the object". Otherwise you're just paying (in full or in part via a deposit) for title to goods, not necessarily possession. Unless the dealer hands it over to you without you having a slot, which is already quite rightly a criminal offence.

Why do you think it wouldn't be ok for a child to had the money to the cashier for the goods with age restrictions, providing the child is accommpanied by an adult and it is the adult that takes possession of the goods? E.G. A 30yr is carrying their toddler and the kid has a note in ther hand, goes to a lottery counter and says "One ticket please, go on Tommy, give the nice lady the money" would you really expect the cashier to refuse, make the person put the child down and then personally hand the money over?

Possession in this context (as far as i'm concerned) is entirely relating to physical possession, and not some commercial interpretation/implied possession by handing over money/card details.

Its the sellers responsibility to check the buyers credentials in the case of firearms transactions, and down to the seller to decide whether someone paying for a firearm does have authority to take possession of it at the time of the exchange.

For example; If someone rings an RFD and says "Can you order me X gun please" Its the dealers responsibility to either check then and there if the person has the relevant slot on their ticket, or if not then, when they physically come to the shop to take possession. If the dealer does ask at the initial contact if the person has the slot and they say "No, or no but the variation is in", again, its up to the dealer to decide whether to order the gun for the person/take a deposit etc.

If the dealer had taken the order without checking/or agreed to order the gun while the variation was being processed, then when it came in the person rocked up before the slot was added then obviously they wouldn't hand the gun over, whether the person had paid or not. You don't aquire/possess the gun until its on your certificate, in your hands and off the dealers books. Just don't get where the confusion is??