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TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:57 am
by Gaz
Another day, another "I saw this on Facebook" post...

This from the NRA:
Rule 150

Members may be aware of a lively debate surrounding Rule 150 (Target Rifle : Firearms, Ammunition, Equipment, Targets and Techniques) – specifically on issues pertaining to throat length and throat diameter.

For the avoidance of doubt I can confirm:-

(1) The 2014 edition of the NRA Handbook (the Bible) has no changes to Rule 150 from 2013.

(2) We are in discussions with the British Proof Houses to ascertain whether further trials and tests are required to improve the understanding of the relationship between throat dimensions and pressure.

(3) An independent review is being commissioned to examine the various changes to Rule 150 since the 1999 Proof House Memorandum that established the current exemptions from standard CIP dimensions

I hope this is helpful; further updates will be posted as appropriate.

Andrew Mercer
Secretary General
What's this all about?

Re: TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:14 am
by rox
Gaz wrote:
Rule 150
What's this all about?
Discrepancies between the 1999 memorandum providing limited exceptions to CIP chamber dimensions and NRA rule 150 and the testing procedures. The previous Chairman sought to unwravel and resolve this and was kicked out for doing so.

..

Re: TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:34 am
by rox
Gaz wrote:
Rule 150
What's this all about?

If you want more detail read this.


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Re: TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:55 am
by Gaz
rox wrote:
Gaz wrote:
Rule 150
What's this all about?

If you want more detail read this.


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Er. Nice of the NRA to make it clear that they're talking about rifles chambered in accordance with their rules which are potentially unsafe and unlawful to transfer! wtfwtf

Re: TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:51 pm
by karen
rox wrote:The previous Chairman sought to unwravel and resolve this and was kicked out for doing so.

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Not true Rox - there is a LOT more to it than that.

General council and the trustees are not that stupid

Love

Karen (in South Africa so don't expect instant answers)

Re: TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:17 am
by ovenpaa
For those reading this and not being sure of Rule 150 here it is in its entirety.

TR – Target Rifle
150
Any bolt-action rifle which, in the opinion of the Shooting Committee, is of conventional design and safe. All rifles must also conform to the following:
General:
The rifle or all its component parts must be readily available in quantity.
Weight:
Maximum 6.5kg (14.32lbs) as used including all attachments except the sling.
Barrel and Chamber:
Suitable for firing any of:
a
the standard 7.62 x 51mm NATO military cartridge
b
the .308” Winchester commercial cartridge
FIREARMS, AMMUNITION, EQUIPMENT and TARGETS
66
c
the .303” British Mk VII military cartridge
d
the standard 5.56 x 45mm NATO military cartridge
e
the .223” Remington commercial cartridge
Note:
(a) and (b) are not necessarily the same, and (d) and (e) are not the same.
Attention is drawn to Appendix VI.
Bore and Chamber Dimensions:
The dimensions must not be less than either
CIP or SAAMI minimum chamber drawings (whichever is the smaller) other
than in (a) and (b) above where the following concessions are permitted:
the bore diameter must not be less than 0.298”.
the groove diameter must not be less than 0.3065”.
the throat diameter must not be less than either the bullet diameter
or 0.3085”, whichever is the greater.
the minimum throat length may also be reduced but only to such
an extent that the bullet of the cartridge in use is not in contact with
the rifling. See Appendix VI Para 7f.
If reduced bore or groove diameters as above are used, only ammunition
developing an average max pressure less than 3650 Bar under CIP test
conditions may be used. NRA ammunition “as issued” will satisfy this limit.

Pull of trigger:
Minimum 1.5kg (3.307lbs). Set triggers and ‘release’ triggers
are not allowed.
Stock and Butt:
May be shaped so as to be comfortable to the firer. A thumb
hole for the trigger hand is permitted. Adjustable butt plates without hooks are
permitted. The depth of the butt plate curvature shall not exceed 20mm (0.79”)
at its deepest point. A hand stop is permitted.
Magazine:
If fitted shall not be used except as a loading platform for single
rounds.
Muzzle brakes:
Not allowed.
Sling:
Must conform to Para 209.
Backsight:
A variable dioptre eye piece or single correcting lens may be used
(but see Paras 206 and 207). One or more optically flat filters may also be used
in front of or in rear of the aperture. A flexible disc or eyecup may be used. In
addition a piece of flat material or a blinder may be fitted to the backsight to
restrict the vision of the disengaged eye.
Foresight:
Any type which may contain a single clear or coloured magnifying
lens which has a minimum focal length of 2 metres (0.5 dioptre) but see Paras
206 and 207. It may also contain optically flat clear or coloured element(s).
Spirit levels:
It is permitted to attach spirit levels or other level indicators to
the rifle.
FIREARMS, AMMUNITION, EQUIPMENT and TARGETS
67
Overseas competitors. Where reciprocal agreement has been reached, overseas
competitors may use, in competition, target rifles which conform to their home
country’s Governing Body’s rules, during their first three months in the United
Kingdom, provided that they conform to the maximum weight, chamber
dimensions, minimum trigger pull and sight specifications given above. Out
of competition only the minimum trigger weight condition must be complied
with. Telescopic sights are not permitted. The rifles must be suitable for use
with any ammunition supplied by the NRA (see Appendix VI).

Re: TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:25 am
by rox
ovenpaa wrote:For those reading this and not being sure of Rule 150 here it is in its entirety.
Note that this is the rule as it stands/stood for the 2013 and 2014 seasons. It has been the subject of much change recently, and will probably change again now that it is being re-investigated by the NRA (which seems strange, since they apparently tried to stop the previous chairman from investigating it). any????

I believe that these are the CIP dimensions:

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/up ... auto,0,333

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Re: TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:26 am
by ovenpaa
What I should have added is the open letter from Robin Pizer to John Warburton dated 26 Feb 2014 should be read in its entirety and not just skimmed as it does contain some important points.
Dear John

Thank you very much for the way you chaired the meeting on 8 February and indeed for your
exceptionally kind letter of 14 February. I am particularly heartened by that. I remain proud to have been NRA
chairman and hugely satisfied by what has been achieved often in the face of entrenched resistance from those
with vested interests.

I have looked back on my career in shooting whether helping individuals, clubs or the NRA itself. It has
had its ups and downs but these have never stopped me pursuing an issue where I thought something was badly
wrong sometimes at significant cost to myself. It is clear as I have commented to the trustees in the past that I
conduct my life using a set of values which are quite different to those followed by some in the shooting world.
All my adult life I have been involved in research – at times at the cutting edge. It would have been all too
easy when I became NRA chairman to turn a blind eye and go with the crowd. On the day I was appointed
chairman I was told a police enquiry had begun into the way the NRA was complying with the Firearms Acts. The
report was devastating – any club would have been closed down. Then there was NATSS, GBTSF, British
Shooting, the Olympics and the development of Bisley Camp. Underlying all this was a dawning realisation that
there really was something wrong with NSC. I went to the membership and got help on many topics where the
trustees accepted they did not have the skills. As we went into 2010, it became clear that we had an HR disaster on
our hands and some potential health and safety issues. Then came the double whammy with the realisation that all
was not well with our computerised accounts and there were problems with both VAT and PAYE.

At this point the problems became much more visible to the NRA membership and are partly documented
in my speeches at the AGMs. In these early years the seriousness of the problems united the trustees in producing
a strategy for the NRA and a restructuring proposal in 2010 which latter was implemented in 2011. By the end of
2013 about 40 out of the 68 staff the NRA had in 2009 had left through retirement, resignation or redundancy.
The unity of the trustees was shattered in Dec 2011 with the decision regarding the captaincy of the
Australia Match, which had been added to the events during the GB team tour of the West Indies. I strongly
disagreed with that decision. I was treated as a pariah by some trustees who thought I had leaked voting details to
Nigel Penn. I am glad that he has recently confirmed that he still does not know who voted for him and who
against other than I who voted for him. The trustees spent huge amounts of time over the next 2 months on this
issue at the very moment when we should instead have been concentrating on the restructuring and the accounts.
2012 was the most worrying year of my chairmanship with the fallout from Bisley Live, the uncleanliness of the
ablution blocks, potholes and other matters. I breathed a sigh of relief when Andrew Mercer arrived as our new
Chief Executive.

Looking back on 2013, it is clear my views were being rejected and that all was not well. The trustees did
not like my ideas about changes to the methods of appointing trustees or the role I had played, against indifference
and outright hostility, in helping to get dialogue going on the Talent Pathway concept that Sport England was
imposing on all sports. I was concerned that in 11 Commonwealth Games, England had only won one individual
Gold Medal whereas the rest of the UK had won 5. One pleasing point was the enthusiasm shown by CCRS in
working with British Shooting to keep more youngsters in the shooting sports.

But the tipping point for me was August 2013 when it appeared that the trustees were not getting the
appropriate technical advice on rule 150. Given what has been discovered as a result of my visit to the two Proof
Houses, I have no regrets even though this was the tipping point for 6 trustees.

Clearly 13 December 2013 and 8 February 2014 are days I shall remember for a long time particularly
John Webster's remark that my action in visiting the Proof Houses might mean that GB will never win the Palma
match again. Some people made the point that rule 150 was clouding the issue and yet for me it was very much the
sole point. In my closing 5 minutes address on 8 February I said 'I have gone through this process because I care
more about the NRA than my own future within the NRA. I was offered a fond farewell with lots of nice things
said about me if I quit quietly. So why didn't I quit quietly ?' I knew I had stumbled accidentally on a problem of
concern to the Proof Houses and relayed their very reasonable request that the NRA define the freebore for Target
Rifles so that the Proof Houses could use gauges to check rifles were compliant with the British Proof Authority
Memorandum of June 1999.

I now know that for 14 years rule 150 has not complied with this Memorandum. I will raise this in a
separate letter to Andrew Mercer copying you in. Obviously my concern was either not understood or was
misrepresented. However it must have been clear to General Council that a total break down in relations between
the majority of trustees and me occurred on 13 December, so General Council had to make a choice which they
did and which I accept.

I reiterate my thanks to all those NRA members who have helped in one way or another to resolve the
issues noted above. In particular I would thank the trustees in the early years of my chairmanship particularly
Charles Murton, David Frank and Peter Hobson. I must also thank that small group of friends and family who
have given me advice in recent months particularly John Carmichael for explaining so many technical matters to
me in a way I could understand.

I remain exceptionally concerned about the future direction of TR particularly rule 150 and the selection,
appointment and assessment of NRA trustees. I hope it is now clear that there is something seriously wrong about
both.

I hope too that I can enjoy my shooting again.

Yours sincerely

Robin Pizer

Re: TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:32 am
by zanes
What a mess :(

Re: TR chamber dimensions problem?

Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:01 am
by John MH
A tale of woe.