The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

We headed off to Old Warden today to have a look at the Shuttleworth Collection of aircraft, cars and motorbikes, we had the Vikings Mother and Brother with us so visiting something 'mechanical' seemed like the right thing to do. if you have not been before the collection is well worth visiting and they have some exceptionally rare aircraft on display and the one thing in common is if it has an engine it is almost certainly capable of flight. Current restoration projects also include their Spitfire which is a total rebuild with every single rivet being replaced which is something in the order of 25,000 of the little things, with luck it will be back in the air in the next couple of years.

Now to the gun thing, this caught my eye, from memory it is the Mark II version of the Browning .303 as used on the Spitfire amongst others What really caught my eye saying this is a replica does not fire bullets and is not dangerous in any way or form or words to that effect, what a splendid model/replica I thought and a closer look also showed it to be rather well made.

Does anyone know anything about the aircraft derivatives of the Browning .303? I have a feeling they were lightened for use in aircraft and were loosely based on the M1919 however that is about all so a heads up on the mkII would be good, and a set of plans even better tongueout

The ammunition belt was 9 yards long, hence the expression to give someone "the full nine yards"

meles meles wrote:The ammunition belt was 9 yards long, hence the expression to give someone "the full nine yards"

Urban myth

According to this website only some minor of changes were made for British use - http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/we ... I_raf.html



and according to these couple of sites nobody is really sure of the origin of " the whole nine yards." http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the- ... yards.html
http://www.nineyards.com/faq

I've got the M1919 armourers manual, if you fancy it, and some of the drawings, not a complete set. But I should be able to get them for you, might take a while tesnews

Also the length of ammunition belt (actually disintegrating link) in a Spitfire was approx 15 feet. Each gun had 300 rounds which was enough for a 15 second continuous burst.

The rate of fire was much higher than the ground gun. The U.S. 1919A4 had a rate of fire of about 500 RPM which wouldn't be effective in air to air combat. The .30 aircraft version was fitted to U.S. aircraft pre and early WW2 but were felt to be ineffective due to the projectile size and range and were replaced with M3 .50 guns. During the Rhodesian war the attack helicopters were fitted with Browning aircraft guns in .303 because of the high rate of fire.

That's all I know!

rufrdr wrote:The rate of fire was much higher than the ground gun. The U.S. 1919A4 had a rate of fire of about 500 RPM which wouldn't be effective in air to air combat. The .30 aircraft version was fitted to U.S. aircraft pre and early WW2 but were felt to be ineffective due to the projectile size and range and were replaced with M3 .50 guns. During the Rhodesian war the attack helicopters were fitted with Browning aircraft guns in .303 because of the high rate of fire.

That's all I know!

Slight digression - the Rhodesian Air Force had two versions of the Allouette for fireforce duties the K-Car and the G-Car. The K-Cars were fitted with 20mm cannon - taken from de Havilland Vampires, IIRC - and operated as command and control element of the operation as well as a gunship. The G-Cars were the ones armed with the Brownings and transported the troopies about.

HTH

Sandgroper wrote:

rufrdr wrote:The rate of fire was much higher than the ground gun. The U.S. 1919A4 had a rate of fire of about 500 RPM which wouldn't be effective in air to air combat. The .30 aircraft version was fitted to U.S. aircraft pre and early WW2 but were felt to be ineffective due to the projectile size and range and were replaced with M3 .50 guns. During the Rhodesian war the attack helicopters were fitted with Browning aircraft guns in .303 because of the high rate of fire.

That's all I know!

Slight digression - the Rhodesian Air Force had two versions of the Allouette for fireforce duties the K-Car and the G-Car. The K-Cars were fitted with 20mm cannon - taken from de Havilland Vampires, IIRC - and operated as command and control element of the operation as well as a gunship. The G-Cars were the ones armed with the Brownings and transported the troopies about.

HTH

Thanks for the clarification! I've wondered if the large quantity of surplus 1980 dated South African .303 ball was overrun from supplies intended for Rhodesia and the helicopters. I know that the RSA Commando groups held .303 weapons but so much of it dated at the end of the Rhodesian war makes me think that the war ended but the factory didn't slow down production until the following year.