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Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:41 pm**

One thing that did strike me on the EM-2 video was how close the back end of the bolt is on full rearward travel to the shooter's body - there's damn all between it and you. I presume the L85 is similar as another bullpup? I'd prefer a lot more separation from sensitive me and fast moving metal parts!

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:39 pm**

saddler wrote:...and the EM-2 design WAS officially adopted...as Rifle, No.9
Rumours are it saw some use in Suez.
Then Churchill (the PM not the insurance dog) pulled it
Manny Shinwell pushed for it to be brought back...but sadly lost.

Further reading:
EM-2, Concept & Design - by Dugelby
Modern Military Bullpups - by Dugelby
Last Enfield - by Raw
& any of the other Collector Grade titles on The Black Rifle, the three FAL series volumes, M14, etc.

I have no doubt that the EM2 would have matured into a fine rifle and a worthy successor to the Lee Enfields, but that said, Churchill made the right decision in adopting 7.62x51 and the Fal, we just had to swallow our pride and adopt the calibre at the end of the day.

I would use an L1A1 as one of the control rifles in any future trials and tell the competing companies "it has to be at least as reliable as this"

Regarding the limited range of the AK, well that's a subjective thing really, I have seen semi AK's repeatedly hit coke cans at 200yds .... now that is accurate enough to spoil anyone's day.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:53 pm**

huntervixen wrote:
saddler wrote:...and the EM-2 design WAS officially adopted...as Rifle, No.9
Rumours are it saw some use in Suez.
Then Churchill (the PM not the insurance dog) pulled it
Manny Shinwell pushed for it to be brought back...but sadly lost.

Further reading:
EM-2, Concept & Design - by Dugelby
Modern Military Bullpups - by Dugelby
Last Enfield - by Raw
& any of the other Collector Grade titles on The Black Rifle, the three FAL series volumes, M14, etc.
I have no doubt that the EM2 would have matured into a fine rifle and a worthy successor to the Lee Enfields, but that said, Churchill made the right decision in adopting 7.62x51 and the Fal, we just had to swallow our pride and adopt the calibre at the end of the day.

I would use an L1A1 as one of the control rifles in any future trials and tell the competing companies "it has to be at least as reliable as this"

Regarding the limited range of the AK, well that's a subjective thing really, I have seen semi AK's repeatedly hit coke cans at 200yds .... now that is accurate enough to spoil anyone's day.

If someone is THAT addicted to Coke I'm sure their day would be utterly ruined...prefer tea myself

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:26 pm**

Also, the 5.56 is increasingly used by heavier support weapons such as the FN Minimi. These have the ability to effect hits at much longer ranges than the individual rifleman's 300 metres, ...

Laurie,

I more or less agree with you at this point, but only in an American context. Their version of the M249 has a far longer barrel than our "para" version, so I would have to assume that the earlier logic for reduced velocities and accuracy would hold more true for us.

I'm also going to disagree with Meles(2) about the L85, but for mainly personal reasons: I just really hate the ergonomics on bullpups. As the owner of relatively large hands, the mag well digs in to my right wrist and the drills required for IA and loading etc are made needlessly awkward and complex by the bullpup design when compared to a more conventional platform (AR/M4). I will admit that I think we are moving in the right direction with optics _now_, but I am no fan of the SUSAT. I appreciate that the sight is robust, but coarse, complex and error prone external adjustment of an optic on a "precision" rifle (I believe that it is PAM 5 that states the accuracy to be almost 3MOA...) is just a let down. That you have to estimate range, then adjust sights, then re-sight on the target, then shoot and rest the drum is shocking. At least we now have something that is fit for purpose, well, the regulars do. If I'm lucky, I may get an ACOG by the time the tritium degrades.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:30 pm**

I more or less agree with you at this point, but only in an American context. Their version of the M249 has a far longer barrel than our "para" version, so I would have to assume that the earlier logic for reduced velocities and accuracy would hold more true for us.

Ouch! That seems very limiting for an MG. What is with this obsession with super-short infantry weapons? Is 'carryability' in vehicles and helicopters the most important criterion amongst policymakers?

I can just about understand the American M4 choice, although it amuses me to see these little and relatively light weapons weighted down with three different sighting systems, infra-red, torch, grenade thrower and enough Picatinny rail to build a good model railway layout in the loft so the end result has to be back into double-figure lb weight.

But an MG with a short barrel that reduces effective range and lethality? Maybe the aim is to scare the opposition away by the sound of passing rounds and ricochets rather than hit / hurt them - a sort of Green Party military policy (as long as it's lead-free ammo).

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:31 pm**

Rather an academic point about the SUSAT User702 now the ELCAN Specter has been adopted as the standard optic for the L85A2 as part of the FIST program:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=123&v=lgOLg5SC03I

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:48 pm**

This is still very funny thread.

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:56 pm**

saddler wrote:
huntervixen wrote:
saddler wrote:...and the EM-2 design WAS officially adopted...as Rifle, No.9
Rumours are it saw some use in Suez.
Then Churchill (the PM not the insurance dog) pulled it
Manny Shinwell pushed for it to be brought back...but sadly lost.

Sorry, in a Scottish context, make that hit a can of ironbrew or two stacked deep fried Mars bars.

Further reading:
EM-2, Concept & Design - by Dugelby
Modern Military Bullpups - by Dugelby
Last Enfield - by Raw
& any of the other Collector Grade titles on The Black Rifle, the three FAL series volumes, M14, etc.
I have no doubt that the EM2 would have matured into a fine rifle and a worthy successor to the Lee Enfields, but that said, Churchill made the right decision in adopting 7.62x51 and the Fal, we just had to swallow our pride and adopt the calibre at the end of the day.

I would use an L1A1 as one of the control rifles in any future trials and tell the competing companies "it has to be at least as reliable as this"

Regarding the limited range of the AK, well that's a subjective thing really, I have seen semi AK's repeatedly hit coke cans at 200yds .... now that is accurate enough to spoil anyone's day.
If someone is THAT addicted to Coke I'm sure their day would be utterly ruined...prefer tea myself

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:59 pm**

Fedaykin wrote:Rather an academic point about the SUSAT User702 now the ELCAN Specter has been adopted as the standard optic for the L85A2 as part of the FIST program:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=123&v=lgOLg5SC03I

Why do I get images of Call of duty Squaddie edition when I see that?

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:02 pm**

The Minimi 249 thing was on the boards & JUST out back in my happy days of working for Browning. You should have seen the early FN poster of it...almost crisis inducing in it's loveliness

It always struck me as odd to the extreme, that the standard Minimi version had a 18" barrel, yet the AR15A2 I owned at about the same time had a 20" barrel.

Always thought that an LMG type thing was for better suppression & at longer ranges than the individual was capable of with the standard rifle.
Obviously not - though unlike the abomination that is the LSW - at least you can do barrel changes on the M249

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