The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Ovenpaa wrote:

Plecotus wrote:So has the deline in the distribution and abundance of the species.

Markedly so and not just the Woodcock, there are certainly UK species of birds higher up on the list than the Woodcock. Lapwings are in serious decline and they are not even being shot at, having said that modern farming methods are not helping nor are land based predators, although I did see a significant flock of lapwings fly over just to the south east of Louth a few weeks ago, we all agreed we had never seen so many Lapwings in the air at one time. Sparrows and even Starlings are all suffering and that is before even considering UK mammals.

At the other end of the scale there has been a huge increase in the numbers of Buzzards and Red Tailed Kites over the last few years. Personally I like to see Buzzards on the wing or in the case of around here, usually sitting on the top of a hedgerow. I am not so keen on Kites. Regardless of what people say about Fox or Badger, numbers are on the increase. We stood on the edge of a field the day the Lapwings came over and the person with us pointed out the locations of 11 Badger sets within sight of eye.

Curlews, I see them maybe only 2-3 times a month now, in fact I see more Marsh Harriers than Curlews. I could go on....

You're not wrong in most of what you say. I'm a wildlife biogist and still actively working in the sector which makes me very familiar with the (often depressing) statistics. Whilst Badger numbers have increased markedly, they remain very territorial animals and numerous setts visible from one place could indicate lots of things. They have different types of setts they use in different ways. The only way to be sure what's going on is either to take samples for DNA analysis from latrine pits or to undertake a long-term bait-marking study. Either way, you spend a lot of time poking around in some of the smelliest poo going. Welcome to my world

Much of the decline in the avian species you mention is down to changes in agricultural practices and other entirely human activities. There is sound evidence that predators, both terrestrial and avian, can cause problems with ground nesting bird species such as Curlew and Lapwing but very little to suggest that these same predators make any contribution to the deline of many other species of conservation concern. In amost every case, the delcine of a species is never down to one factor in isolation.

The species that are doing well are frequently, generalists who can adapt and work around the landscape scale changes that humans introduce. Many raptors are more or less generalists and the main reason for their population increases has been a significant reduction in deliberate persecution as a result of changes in the law in the early 80s combined the the banning of organochlorine pesticides, like DDT and Dieldrin, which cause eggshell thining and consequent poor reproductive rates.

I've been involved in various projects around the Wash and further south into Norfolk over the years. If you have any interest in wild birds, it's a great place to live. Most of the stuff I've been involved with has been cannon netting waders, as part of ringing studies looking at population and migrational changes with the work most frequently undertaken in the winter. Catches can be huge over young cabages and similar at high water when the birds get pushed of their intertidal mud feeding grounds.

It's often argued that habitat management on pheasant shoots is beneficial to other species and, at one level , this is certainly true. The problem comes from releasing huge numbers of what is, at the end of the day, a non-native, omniverous species into the wild. Pheasants at the high densities found on many commercial shoots will eat every insect, yound reptile and probably many other things at a rate which is far from sustainable. Pheasants too will eat eggs and eben chicks of small, ground nesting birds such as Wood Warbler.

I've little problem with most quarry shooting in the UK but I'm afraid Pheasant and (Red) Grouse is a different matter.

GeeRam wrote:

Ovenpaa wrote:Sparrows and even Starlings are all suffering and that is before even considering UK mammals.

Back when I was growing up here in the West London suburbs in the 60's and 70's, our garden used to full of sparrows, finches, starlings and blackbirds, and of course pigeons.
Pretty much completely disappeared now.
Only birds seen now in the area in any mass are pigeons, magpie's, gulls and crows.

Ovenpaa wrote: At the other end of the scale there has been a huge increase in the numbers of Buzzards and Red Tailed Kites over the last few years.

That has been very noticeable.

I don't thinks it's only agricultural land use changes that have affected wildlife habitats as there have been as big big changes to domestic properties. Living in a large dormitory village to York, we're surrounded on three sides by intensively farmed land and York racecourse on the fourth. The village used to be a haven for garden birds and common insects, hedgehogs too, quite markedly so when we moved here in the early 1980s. It's a lot less so today. That may be due to land use changes outside of the village, but just walking / driving around it shows that many back gardens now consist of scrubby lawn and a few non flowering bland shrubs, not mention Leylandii and similar hedges. Front gardens? Two thirds are now covered in gravel or paving to accommodate cars or work vans. Many of those remaining have now got inverted L-shape drives removing a third to half the growing area to make room for two cars and allow them to pass each other without the traditional daily 'marshalling / shunting'. The sad fact is that a large well-stocked wildlife-friendly garden takes too much time, work and money for many families with the adults all in work and a need make room for two or even three cars.

City of York itself is a constant and widespread building site as former large workplaces are transformed into residential property - and nearly all the new dwellings are student buildings or large apartment blocks surrounded by concrete and tarmac with a few trees and an occasional small grass or garden strip to inject something not man made. The former Terry's (latterly Kraft Foods) confectionery factory site just up the road from my village is an upmarket version of a 1960s Soviet workers' development or WW2 PoW camp with cube-shape apartment blocks crammed in as close as possible to each other.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/uv?hl=en& ... 9093191139


New traditional homes have a fraction of the garden space of their predecessors too. No wonder there are fewer house sparrows and even starlings. Our garden has some large buddleia bushes and other insect attracting flowering shrubs but unlike some years ago we get only a handful of butterflies most flowering seasons and every year there seem to be fewer bumble bees.

Not matter which side you are coming from, be that the misguided Chris Packham's side or everybody else, at the end of the day there are too many people in this country, having an enormous impact on services and wildlife.

Yes predators and farming have an impact on various species. The whole game industry is not without faults.

At the end of the day it is too many people that is the main culprit, putting pressure on limited resources.

https://populationmatters.org/our-patrons

BTW...on that page, that is the only logic I have ever heard from Chris Packham

"The whole game industry is not without faults."...........................

You can say that again............ https://www.league.org.uk/shooting

Attenborough is the only person I've ever heard say on TV that we need to do something about over-population.

Pete

Pete wrote:"The whole game industry is not without faults."...........................

You can say that again............ https://www.league.org.uk/shooting

Attenborough is the only person I've ever heard say on TV that we need to do something about over-population.

Pete

That is because he is an old esteemed well liked chap who very few people would call a racist and he probably is beyond caring about being called anything these days, 92yr from memory.

If anyone else said that in public they would get labelled a racist and very likely their reputation would be tarnished.

That link you posted, not people I would like to be associated with.

Pete why are you posting links to that vile terrorist organisation?

Has everyone forgotten what the original post was about “Pigeon and Crow shooting” it seems to me that people are losing the thread, the whole thing began with the forum watching and commenting on Mr Packham now all these dissident organisations will be watching this forum falling apart arguing amongst ourselves instead of coming “together” as a whole against these interlopers.

Gundog wrote:Has everyone forgotten what the original post was about “Pigeon and Crow shooting” it seems to me that people are losing the thread, the whole thing began with the forum watching and commenting on Mr Packham now all these dissident organisations will be watching this forum falling apart arguing amongst ourselves instead of coming “together” as a whole against these interlopers.

That's what happens and the reason I choose to not get involved in these type of discussions because you can guarantee they will go off on a tangent very quickly.

Ah, the art of conversation. Still achievable with a keyboard despite the wish of some of the adherence of 140 characters per contribution...

Off or related topic is absolutely fine as long as the OP doesn't complain.

What is wrong with debate? Exchange of views?
Might just learn something.