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IainWR wrote:

froggy wrote:Re-

True, but safety on rifles & pistols are 2 different things . You do need a safety on a shoulder held weapons to carry it 24/24 condition 1 but not with the pistol has it is holstered hammer down condition 2.

If you carry as a primary weapon (2 hands free) condition 3 and practice de-holstering weak hand on chest you can achieve a fast & fluid de-holstering + make ready condition 0 with very little time difference from condition 2.

My P226 does not have a manual safety anyway and since I trust my kydex safariland to protect the triger guard and prevent weapon grab, so carrying in condition 2, it leaves no risk of AD, just leave me open to ND. Since I acquired a CZ SP01 that has a manual safety 1911 style and I simply never use it. On the other hand with a rifle the safety comes off only when the stock is on my shoulder .

At the risk of falling into the Alpha 1 mode, would you mind defining Conditions 0, 1, 2 and 3? To me, a gun is unloaded, loaded or ready. I have carrried SLR (UK FN-FAL limited to semi-auto), SMG (Sterling Mk7), SLP (Browning Hi-Power), H&K G3, L96A1, SA80, L39A1 and ex-Argentinian FN-FAL on duty, lots of S1 firearms of all classes at work, and have owned semi-auto pistols and single-shot rifles, and I do not know this terminology which seems to get used quite a lot.

yours

Iain

http://knightowldefense.com/2013/06/

I do not know this terminology which seems to get used quite a lot

Its used more in America.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

ordnance wrote:

I do not know this terminology which seems to get used quite a lot

Its used more in America.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

Thank you.

So, 1 and 2 are "ready", 3 is "loaded" and 4 is "unloaded"?

Another thing that has always intrigued me (remember the only self-loading pistol I really know is the Browning Hi-Power): how do you get from condition 3 to condition 2 without risk of blowing your thumb off?

Iain

Another thing that has always intrigued me (remember the only self-loading pistol I really know is the Browning Hi-Power): how do you get from condition 3 to condition 2 without risk of blowing your thumb off?

CZ recommend that you point the handgun in a safe direction and very carefully lower the hammer. If the handgun has a decocker then you just press it.

Load the pistol. Grasp the grip, POINT IN A SAFE DIRECTION. With a thumb press on
the grooved area (thumb piece) of the hammer, pull the trigger and release the hammer
slowly forward (Fig. 6) until it rests on the action or safety notch of the hammer. Release the
trigger. Practise this operation very carefully to avoid an accidental discharge! We strongly
recommend to practise this operation beforehand with the pistol unloaded!
In this state the pistol is safe for all normal handling and at the same time ready for
immediate use.

IainWR wrote:

ordnance wrote:

I do not know this terminology which seems to get used quite a lot

Its used more in America.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

Thank you.

So, 1 and 2 are "ready", 3 is "loaded" and 4 is "unloaded"?

Another thing that has always intrigued me (remember the only self-loading pistol I really know is the Browning Hi-Power): how do you get from condition 3 to condition 2 without risk of blowing your thumb off?

Iain

From condition 3 (the pistol is loaded but not 'made ready'), Make ready and then hold hammer back and squeeze trigger, then lower hammer and apply the safety catch.
As someone who carried side arms(various pistols ranging from S&W Mod 10 to Sig 226 and all in-between) as part of my job in the military whilst in plain clothes, I never heard the terminology of conditions 1,2, 3 etc. I believe that they are made up from people who have watched too many american films. I carried my side arms made ready with the safety applied or not depending on where was and what I was doing.

IainWR wrote:

ordnance wrote:

I do not know this terminology which seems to get used quite a lot

Its used more in America.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

Thank you.

So, 1 and 2 are "ready", 3 is "loaded" and 4 is "unloaded"?

Another thing that has always intrigued me (remember the only self-loading pistol I really know is the Browning Hi-Power): how do you get from condition 3 to condition 2 without risk of blowing your thumb off?

Iain

as ordnance said, however not a safe thing to do with most Hi Powers/1911's and like pistols, regardless of whether they have external safeties or not (think, firing pin resting on primer waiting to be tapped!)

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm learning!

Now, anyone, how to get from 3 to 2 WITHOUT RISK?
And if, as I suspect from answers above, it can't be done WITHOUT RISK, why do people do it, why does someone not design a gun where it can be done WITHOUT RISK, and how many ex-pistol shooters are there worldwide minus a thumb?

Iain

And if, as I suspect from answers above, it can't be done WITHOUT RISK, why do people do it, why does someone not design a gun where it can be done WITHOUT RISK, and how many ex-pistol shooters are there worldwide minus a thumb?

You can if the handgun is fitted with a decocker.

The models equipped with a decocking lever are, in most cases, the best choice for most shooters wanting a handgun for defensive purposes. With the decocker models, you must remember to decock the hammer after chambering a round and before holstering, but when placed in a defensive situation, there is no safety lever that you have to remember to disengage; the primary safety element of the decocked handgun is the longer heavier pull of the double action trigger.

as part of my job in the military whilst in plain clothes, I never heard the terminology of conditions 1,2, 3 etc. I believe that they are made up from people who have watched too many american films. I carried my side arms made ready with the safety applied or not depending on where was and what I was doing.

That's because the UK military use the term -unloaded -loaded -ready.

Devised by pistol guru Jeff Cooper, this convention is used to designate the state of readiness of a m1911 pattern pistol. It can also be applied to most other designs of auto loading pistols.

•Condition 1 - Also called "cocked and locked", this means that a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety is on.
•Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber, the hammer is uncocked.
•Condition 3 - There is no round in the chamber, the hammer is uncocked but a fully loaded magazine is inserted in the mag well.
•Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, the hammer is uncocked and there is no magazine inserted in the mag well

ordnance wrote:

And if, as I suspect from answers above, it can't be done WITHOUT RISK, why do people do it, why does someone not design a gun where it can be done WITHOUT RISK, and how many ex-pistol shooters are there worldwide minus a thumb?

You can if the handgun is fitted with a decocker.

Sorry, again, I get what a decocker does from its name, but how does it work and which well-known pistols are fitted with one?

still learning

Iain

Steve E wrote: I never heard the terminology of conditions 1,2, 3 etc. I believe that they are made up from people who have watched too many american films.

In that case you'd be wrong. It comes from what is known as "The Modern Technique". Derived from a group of individuals in the mid 1950's and refined by Jeff Cooper. The whole concept of the technique formed the basis for his teaching at Gunsite and the begining of Practical Pistol as a sport with the IPSC.

I also carried a number of small arms covertly in the military, for several years. The "modern technique" so to speak was the basis of a reformed attitude towards pistol carrying by covert and SF British military, which was recognised as being invaluable to soldiers like us, as provided at the time by the then UKPSA, and detailed by Lt. Gen. Sir Peter Duffell, Inspector General Doctrine and Training, in his submission to the Cullen Enquiry.

Condition 0 and 4 never formed part of the original set. They were not intended to denote the state of the pistol itself, but to describe in what condition the pistol was carried.