7.62/.308 or 7.62x39?

[Alpha1]

To me the real issue would be ammo. I wouldn't sell 7.62 x39 ammo to someone who had 7.62/.308 on his ticket and didn't already possess a firearm chambered for it.

but would you sell 7.62 x39 ammo to someone who had a 7.62 x39 rifle on their ticket, and who had an ammo allowance for 7.62/.308, but no other rifles? IE ticket only has one gun on it, and only one ammo allowance on it.

NO

I don,t understand what the problem is.
If ask for a variation I state the caliber I want and the ammunition I want to acquire in that caliber. Its worked for me for the last 30 year with out any issues so whats changed.

[Alpha1]

60 replies.
1305 views you guys must be really bored you need to go shoot something or go sit at the reloading bench.

[snayperskaya]

60 replies.
1305 views you guys must be really bored you need to go shoot something or go sit at the reloading bench.

Says the chap that's replied then counted the number of replies then posted again! clapclap

[Sim G]

What I meant was (and there is educated (semi??) guessing going on, if someone is looking to buy a rifle, he may well like to have an "overly loose" slot on his FAC so that he can buy something when it turns up, if he isn't bothered which precise chambering he buys. So if he's made to be very precise, and then something different turns up wouldn't he have to get his FAC changed?

I really can't see "I just want whatever 7.62 turns up or takes my fancy at the time" being good reason enough to satisfy an FEO when submitting that variation....

7.62/308 as with 5.56/223 or even 38/357 have been a working practice for a number of years to facilitate the minute differences and near interchangeability, being a convenience to the certificate holder. I have no doubt this will cease once the NFLMS is brought up to speed. In the pedantic "computer says no" world of today, there is no room for ambiguity.

.22RF is .22 Short, .22 Long and .22LR. This is in reference to the class of rifles which chambered these as "miniature rifles". There has been enough recently to ensure that come the next round of primary legislation, this will disappear also.

[TRG-22]

but would you sell 7.62 x39 ammo to someone who had a 7.62 x39 rifle on their ticket, and who had an ammo allowance for 7.62/.308, but no other rifles? IE ticket only has one gun on it, and only one ammo allowance on it.

[TRG-22]

I really can't see "I just want whatever 7.62 turns up or takes my fancy at the time" being good reason enough to satisfy an FEO when submitting that variation....

That may well be so, but again, what is the spirit of the legislation? I have asked, but nobody has yet answered, is there a significant difference between any of the rifles described as "7.62mm" which someone could buy? Significant enough so that the risk assessment and degree of appropriateness would change and an applicant would not be granted a slot for a 7.62 x # if he were to explicitly list it?

If not then absolutely nothing changes - specifying simply "7.62mm" woud not result in a different outcome than if the description had been more prescriptive.

It may offend your sense of neatness, but apart from avoiding some admin hoops the FAC holder would have had no advantageous outcome due to his "cheating".

7.62/308 as with 5.56/223 or even 38/357 have been a working practice for a number of years to facilitate the minute differences and near interchangeability, being a convenience to the certificate holder. I have no doubt this will cease once the NFLMS is brought up to speed. In the pedantic "computer says no" world of today, there is no room for ambiguity.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't, and maybe there isn't.

But until it does, until the letter of the law changes, then it's not on to describe licensing departments and shooters who use a long-standing convention which is widely, if not universally, agreed with as dishonest.

.22RF is .22 Short, .22 Long and .22LR.

In your opinion.

I do not believe that the law actually says that though, does it?

You may wish that shooters faced even more restrictions than they do now, but please don't present your wishes as fact.

This is in reference to the class of rifles which chambered these as "miniature rifles". There has been enough recently to ensure that come the next round of primary legislation, this will disappear also.

Maybe it will.

But until it does, the .22WMR is a rimfire .22 cartridge.

[TRG-22]

Quite frankly tough, there is plenty of space to list all the calibres you listed on a ticket. There are no such thing as 'Practical Considerations' when applying for a FAC or a Variation. The spirit of the law absolutely is contravened using that form of cheat

What do you believe that the spirit of the law is, i.e. what do you think it requires people to do which is not actually written in it?

and using the excuse that they are 'all appropriate for target shooting'. There is nothing to struggle with here, be clear about what you want!

That's what this is all about, really, isn't it. Your personal desire for extreme neatness and provision.

I think this is telling - you wanted accuracy, they didn't give it to you:

I had the same thing happen with my certificate when it came to .22, I put in for .22lr the accurate designation for what I wanted rifle wise and it came back .22RF.

But you think that makes them dishonest.

Never mind that "everybody knows" what is meant by 7.62/.308, just like never mind that "everybody knows" what is meant by "an RJ-45 socket" when talking about PCs - no, we can't have that, got to be "an 8P8C socket"

When you have the situation where the police firearms department and the shooter are quite happy with a practice which is not outside the letter of the law but just one which offends your sensibilities, or contravenes your imagined view of the "spirit" of the law, you have the right to be offended.

You do not have the right to impugn the honesty of the police or shooters concerned.

[Sim G]

You ask what the "spirit" of the law is, but when illustrated to you, you don't grasp the concept. 7.62/308, 223/5.56 and .22RF meaning only short, long and long rifle. You don't get it because your ignorant of the working practices that develop the "spirit' of the law. The spirit of the law is not a handy addendum to legislation, written in list form.

Speaking of which, since 1968 there has been one Principal Act, two Amendment Acts, thirteen Statutory Instruments, and twenty two other principal Acts that refer or amend, firearms legislation. On top of which, there are nigh on 100 Home Office Instructions and hundreds of pieces of case law. And then stick on top of it the Home Office Guidance to Police on Firearms Law. And none of it is in an easy to find compendium, which is why even a crap barrister can charge 500 quid a day!

.22 Rimfire actually does illustrate how the "spirit" of the law is formed as opposed to being "my wish to restrict shooters" (you tosser)...

At the end of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th an amalgamation of several clubs, such as the Society of Working Men's Rifle Clubs, to form the Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs, SMRC. A miniature rifle was not reduced in size but utilised ammunition of less than .23". In its day, was .22 short and .22 long. Long Rifle was not included until WW1 and the production of short and long nigh on ceased. Single shot designs were then easily reamed to accommodate the longer bullet of the LR. "The Citizen Rifleman" is a very good historical reference.

These cartridges weren't small game cartridges as they are today, that was the realm of .250 and .295 CF and other Rook rifle calibers. "Miniature rifles" was coined as it was miniature to the service rifles of the day. They also were known as Gallery Rifles as it referred to he shooting galleries towed by horse, from town fair to town fair by members of the Showman's Guild of Great Britain.

The eventual requirement for firearm certificates exempted these rifles and ammunition from legislation under specific circumstances, namely, this conducting of a miniature rifle club or gallery. The law exempts rifles and ammo of less than .23", the spirit of the law, exempts short, long and LR. That's it. Working practice, custom, heritage, common knowledge, intention, that's the "spirit" of the law. It does not provide for loop holes or over exaggeration.

You make reference to "shooters" and "certificate holders", you are neither. You are not even a member of a club, where you would have found more than enough knowledge to prevent you looking like either a fool out a troll. You are ignorant of the history and the definitions and you are ignorant of the legislation, law and guidance around all of this. I did think that some were a little harsh in their judgement of you, but now I see exactly how they came to that conclusion.

[Andy632]

To me the real issue would be ammo. I wouldn't sell 7.62 x39 ammo to someone who had 7.62/.308 on his ticket and didn't already possess a firearm chambered for it.

but would you sell 7.62 x39 ammo to someone who had a 7.62 x39 rifle on their ticket, and who had an ammo allowance for 7.62/.308, but no other rifles? IE ticket only has one gun on it, and only one ammo allowance on it.

I'd phone my friendly FEO first and get her opinion on it. To me, 7.62/.308 means 7.62 Nato, ie 7.62x51mm.

[Andy632]

It could well be that the practical considerations of explicitly listing all of the types that could tick the box of 7.62mm/.308" would be impractical, but if someone is allowed to buy a rifle, and the reasonable excuse is target shooting, is the spirit of that contravened if he got a 7.62x39 or 7.62x51 or 7.62x54R or 7.62x53R or 7.62x63?

Going beyond just "7.62" there are probably dozens of calibres which would be considered appropriate for a target rifle, and whilst I know that you couldn't get them all into one slot on an FAC, if you could then that wouldn't automagically mean you could buy dozens of rifles, it would still only be the one, so I do struggle to agree with your interpretation of "the spirit".

Quite frankly tough, there is plenty of space to list all the calibres you listed on a ticket. There are no such thing as 'Practical Considerations' when applying for a FAC or a Variation. The spirit of the law absolutely is contravened using that form of cheat and using the excuse that they are 'all appropriate for target shooting'. There is nothing to struggle with here, be clear about what you want!

As Andy632 pointed out as an RFD he won't sell ammunition to people unless it is clearly listed on their ticket, I should know...I purchased 200rds of 7.62x39 and 100rds of 7.62x51 off him last week

And as 'Fedaykin' has pointed out, there's plenty of space on the FAC for various calibres, take it from me, he's talking from experience 'cos I've seen his ticket.