The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

That is because no one is pro-actively making the case on our behalf by promoting and advocating gun ownership and shooting as the positive thing it is.

We are just curled up in a timorous ball of fear waiting to stood upon.

None of our "representative" bodies have any balls and that is why we will loose the limited gun ownership and shooting we currently have in the not too distant future

Fedaykin wrote: 1) no I am not wrong

2) I am expressing an opinion

3) if you live in the US concealed carry makes sense

4) if you live in Europe arguing for concealed carry is not proportional and harms our sport

Yes you are wrong and the thinking that forms your opinion is flawed. Why would being armed in the US make sense but not Europe? Have a look at the reported crime figures. Any really, from the EU to the UN, to Amnisty International to Expats.com.

You will find far higher violent crime figures, save for homocide, in Europe than you do in the US. And the UK ranks in the top 7 for rape, robbery, assault and burglary. The US doesn't make the top 15. Violent crime has the UK ranked above South Africa!

Being armed for defence in public was only outlawed in 1953. Likewise, defence was not regarded as "good reason" for a firearm certificate only 46 years, in 1968. How much safer is society since then?

The open door policy of Europes immigration is the best argument for the reintroduction of honest and decent people being able to take responsibility for their own safety, whilst going about their lawful business, as opposed to the waiting for someone else to turn up and save them....

And with around 10000 police officers less than four years ago, how do you rate your chances of someone else, who is technically armed, getting there in time?

Sim G wrote:

Fedaykin wrote: 1) no I am not wrong

2) I am expressing an opinion

3) if you live in the US concealed carry makes sense

4) if you live in Europe arguing for concealed carry is not proportional and harms our sport

Yes you are wrong and the thinking that forms your opinion is flawed. Why would being armed in the US make sense but not Europe? Have a look at the reported crime figures. Any really, from the EU to the UN, to Amnisty International to Expats.com.

You will find far higher violent crime figures, save for homocide, in Europe than you do in the US. And the UK ranks in the top 7 for rape, robbery, assault and burglary. The US doesn't make the top 15. Violent crime has the UK ranked above South Africa!

Being armed for defence in public was only outlawed in 1953. Likewise, defence was not regarded as "good reason" for a firearm certificate only 46 years, in 1968. How much safer is society since then?

The open door policy of Europes immigration is the best argument for the reintroduction of honest and decent people being able to take responsibility for their own safety, whilst going about their lawful business, as opposed to the waiting for someone else to turn up and save them....

And with around 10000 police officers less than four years ago, how do you rate your chances of someone else, who is technically armed, getting there in time?

Ah the old there is lots of violent crime in Europe vs The US argument.

Have you heard of "normalising the data"?

The UK and other European countries class many hundred different minor crimes as violent, in the US federal government classes about 5 to 10 (I can't remember the exact number).

That means many more crimes get recorded as violent in countries like the UK vs the U.S. you normalise the data only classing like for like then the U.S. over takes the UK for violent crime.

Statistics can be used and abused!

So I am not wrong and the thinking that forms your opinion is based upon a flawed interpretation of statistics.

Look I don't want to trade insults anymore I think I have my position clear, in a free society we have a right to an opinion. What has made me bullish and belligerent is people just outright dismissing my points.

dromia wrote:That is because no one is pro-actively making the case on our behalf by promoting and advocating gun ownership and shooting as the positive thing it is.

We are just curled up in a timorous ball of fear waiting to stood upon.

None of our "representative" bodies have any balls and that is why we will loose the limited gun ownership and shooting we currently have in the not too distant future

I agree with what you are saying about our representative bodies but I do feel they should pick fights they have a chance at winning. Asking for concealed carry in the UK is a non starter.

we don't live in Israel and the terrorist threat is still proportionally low

I think we all know this is not Israel yet it is the closest exemple of what Europe might soon look like . BTW there has been 20 deaths from terrorist acts in Israel since 2012, 27 in France for the same period .

10's of 1,000's followers of the "religion of peace" waiting to come back from Syria to show us their love ... Ostrich policy attitude my dear Fedaykin ??

Fedaykin wrote:But you didn't say, "the reason I want 6 slots and 2000 rounds is for self defence" did you?

Why would I? Why would I ask for guns and ammo for self defence when I want them for target shooting? I'm a law-abiding "citizen" (subject) you see.

Fedaykin wrote:

dromia wrote:That is because no one is pro-actively making the case on our behalf by promoting and advocating gun ownership and shooting as the positive thing it is.

We are just curled up in a timorous ball of fear waiting to stood upon.

None of our "representative" bodies have any balls and that is why we will loose the limited gun ownership and shooting we currently have in the not too distant future

I agree with what you are saying about our representative bodies but I do feel they should pick fights they have a chance at winning. Asking for concealed carry in the UK is a non starter.

Divisive approaches, the nemesis of shooting in the UK!

Fedaykin wrote:...in a free society we have a right to an opinion.

On self defence? Unless of course you own a firearm, right?

Fedaykin wrote: Ah the old there is lots of violent crime in Europe vs The US argument.

Have you heard of "normalising the data"?

The UK and other European countries class many hundred different minor crimes as violent, in the US federal government classes about 5 to 10 (I can't remember the exact number).

That means many more crimes get recorded as violent in countries like the UK vs the U.S. you normalise the data only classing like for like then the U.S. over takes the UK for violent crime.

Statistics can be used and abused!

So I am not wrong and the thinking that forms your opinion is based upon a flawed interpretation of statistics.

Look I don't want to trade insults anymore I think I have my position clear, in a free society we have a right to an opinion. What has made me bullish and belligerent is people just outright dismissing my points.

Normalising the data? How about trivialising the facts?

Ever heard of the door being broken down by the bloke in the flat upstairs who then violently assaulted and raped another man? Or the mugger who after getting the watch, wallet and phone walked away half a dozen steps, then came back and stuck his knife in the victims chest anyway? Or how about the old boy, a victim of a distraction burglary, but when they didn't find enough cash, tied him to his own kitchen chair and beat him. (There was no more money and the old boy said he so wished he had his old service bayonet) or what about the one where the junkie threatened to stick a syringe full of infected blood into the baby unless the mother handed over the keys of her car?

And that's before we see the special brand of criminality brought to these shores! Did you see the shootout in a London street between a Turkish gangster and a plain clothes NCA surveillance officer? The ease in which a criminal was prepared to fill a street with bullets is frightening.

Proportionality? Apart from the NCA shooting, all of the others happened within 20 miles of where I live and I live in a quiet, semi rural part of Kent!

You agree with the right to defence, but deny the most appropriate tools....?

Yeah, you're still wrong.

Fedaykin wrote:

25Pdr wrote:Fedaykin...

Your wish not to rock the boat and keep below the Radar regarding gun ownership in the UK is your right to do so, it is, in my opinion, the reason you are just now, shooting a pretend sub machine gun and a ba$tardized semi auto rifle, stupid laws forced on us by anti gun idiots who's ultimate goal is to ban civilian ownership of guns.

Feel free to bend over and take it from them, I wont.

Why ask for what the public politicians will not let us have?

Well! A Sinn Fein member asked for and was granted a FAC for a personal protection Firearm. If they can issue for terrorist why not us?

Sinn Fein man 'granted firearms certificate' ...