The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:19 pm**

Thank you for the information, very helpful.

1066 wrote:The scale shown in the picture is a Lyman M5, dating, at a guess from around the 1970's, made by Ohaus and one of the forerunners of the current 10/10. I consider the M5, along with the RCBS 304 to be the finest reloading scales ever made although neither have been made for many years.

The graduation on the scale are indeed 10th grains. Early 10/10's and 5-10's also had this feature but as manufacturing corners were cut this feature has been dropped and the current scales just have a single zero line.

The Targetmaster shown in the picture is around six years old.

This is an early 5-10 with graduated scale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVtYglAd9Dc

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:21 pm**

That's very interesting thanks. Do reloading books cover this level of detail?

Dombo63 wrote:The main determinant of accuracy is the jump before the bullet ogive engages with the rifling. The powder charge just determines how far the bullet will travel before it goes subsonic. I helped a mate test some homeloads on Short Siberia at 100 yards. 12 rounds, same load but with different COL representing a 0.02" or so range in 0.005" increments in groups of three. For a given load and bullet weight, he was able to determine the best COL. So my advice would be continue taking advice but also save money on a lab-level electronic scale, get a good beam scale and a Hornady or similar collimator.

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:23 pm**

Thanks for the info and the encouragement to keep talking! :goodjob:

phaedra1106 wrote:I'd say that accuracy is a result of multiple components repeatedly coming together the same way. From basic case prep, powder weight, seating depth up to position, hold and release.

My Steyr prefers a COL slightly above the Saami spec at 2.875" having found this "sweet spot" adjusting the powder charge weight tightened the grouping further so a combination of seating depth, powder weight, consistent case prep and assembly will narrow the margins which affect your resulting accuracy. In the case of my Steyr it reduced a 1.5moa group to .5moa, the only limiting factor being my ability to consistently shoot the same way.

If I was starting to reload now I wouldn't start with basic kit as eventually you will grow out of it (sometimes very quickly). The Target Master, a decent set of scales and even a cheap cast press (like the Lee Cast Breechlock) are more then capable of producing very high quality ammunition, they aren't that expensive compared to a basic level kit and are not difficult to use even for a beginner.

Halodin, please ask as many questions as you wish, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask You'll get a lot of valuable information here from some very experienced shooters and we're all very friendly :shakeshout:

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:29 pm**

I haven't bought anything apart from the Sinclair pocket uniformer, but after taking everything on board this is what I'm considering buying. I think this covers everything and should last me a lifetime. Apart from it isn't the cheapest solution, are there any other comments (good/bad)?

Cheers,

Craig.

RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit

+ RCBS Standard check weights
+ Shell holders - .308 + .44
+ RCBS Advanced powder measure stand
+ Hornady die set + micrometer
+ Wilson case trimmer
+ Wilson case trimmer stand + fired case holder
+ Imperial dry case neck lube (inc ceramic balls)
+ Frankford Quick N-EZ Tumbler + Walnut Media
+ .44 dies
+ TrickleMaster

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:01 pm**

What is a TrickleMaster?

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:04 pm**

It's code for the TargetMaster powder trickler.

dromia wrote:What is a TrickleMaster?

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:27 pm**

HALODIN wrote:RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit - ok but don't discount the Forster Co-Ax unless you intend to reload 'long' cartridges, primer tool is made of Monkey Metal
+ RCBS Standard check weights – not necessary.
+ Shell holders - .308 + .44 – not needed with the Forster
+ RCBS Advanced powder measure stand – ok
+ Hornady die set + micrometer – Forster Dies are IMHO better than Hornady and the Mirco Adjust Bullet Seater does not mark bullets on cartridges with compressed loads.
+ Wilson case trimmer – if you are doing large quantities then there are better options, to begin with a hand held trimmer will probably do the job.
+ Wilson case trimmer stand + fired case holder
+ Imperial dry case neck lube (inc ceramic balls) – stick to the wax, BTW the balls are steel
+ Frankford Quick N-EZ Tumbler + Walnut Media – if you are starting out consider a STM tumbler.
+ .44 dies
+ TrickleMaster – What about a scale? I see that a 5-0-5 Mechanical scale comes with the kit

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:11 pm**

Thanks for the reply. There's an RCBS 505 balance beam and all the other ancillary pieces in the Rockchucker reloading kit, funnels, trays, wax, powder thrower, hand primer etc... The kit is also a reasonable saving over the individual components, so it seemed like a good starting point.

I was inclined to go with Hornady dies, because Hornady ammo is the slickest ammo for my IMBEL FAL, where extraction of 7.62x51 brass is a pain to say the least. .308 is much better and of that Hornady makes it pretty easy. I might be wrong to assume their factory ammo uses precisely the same dimensions that would be produced by their reloading dies, but it seems like my best shot.

Yes I appreciate the Wilson is one of the slower case trimming alternatives, but AFAIK it's one of the most accurate. Accuracy was my main driving force when deciding what I needed. Initially I'm going to be anal about everything, but I guess as I get better at it, I can switch to a cheaper/faster alternative if it doesn't effect the accuracy.

You might be able to persuade me on the steel media tumbler, Mrs HALODIN cleans silver with one, it's quiet and it does a really good job. I'd use it but I doubt I'd get more than 20 casings in it. Do you know the cost in pounds for one of these inc steel pin media? From the review I read it seems it can take between 1-4 hours, how long do you leave it in?

What's wrong with the Imperial dry media for neck resizing? We used it last week when I was being shown "the do's and don'ts" and it worked perfectly.

John MH wrote:
HALODIN wrote:RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit - ok but don't discount the Forster Co-Ax unless you intend to reload 'long' cartridges
+ RCBS Standard check weights – not necessary.
+ Shell holders - .308 + .44 – not needed with the Forster
+ RCBS Advanced powder measure stand – ok
+ Hornady die set + micrometer – Forster Dies are IMHO better than Hornady and the Mirco Adjust Bullet Seater does not mark bullets on cartridges with compressed loads.
+ Wilson case trimmer – if you are doing large quantities then there are better options, to begin with a hand held trimmer will probably do the job.
+ Wilson case trimmer stand + fired case holder
+ Imperial dry case neck lube (inc ceramic balls) – stick to the wax, BTW the balls are steel
+ Frankford Quick N-EZ Tumbler + Walnut Media – if you are starting out consider a STM tumbler.
+ .44 dies
+ TrickleMaster – What about a scale?

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:29 pm**

John MH wrote:
HALODIN wrote:RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit ---snip---

Similar thoughts to John really, in particular the items below. But note - you could go round in circles based on opinions; you will always get many different preferences and styles, hence reiterating the advice to start simple and refine things later as you learn what suits *you*:

Trimming: There are so many ways to do this, each with their own merits (and consequently supporters). There is the Wilson, Giraud, Gracey, WFT, Lee, Dillon, and others. I've used lathe-style plus the Lee, Gracey and Dillon. The Lee does a brilliant job for absolutely peanuts, and is a great place to start (as well as being optionally powered).

Cleaning: I also like Stainless tumbling, but use a giant vibratory for bulk duties. The new 'Extreme' tumblers look to offer some benefits over the Thumlers for stainless processing.

Dies: The Forster Ultra micrometer seater is as good as they for this type of press, and Redding competition dies are in a similar league, all with sliding sleeves for alignment. Forster bushing bump is another useful die if you like neck sizing.

Powder Measure: I would prefer an RCBS 'competition' measure to the one included with the kit, and this is one possible reason to buy separate items instead of a kit. A top quality hand primer, such as a Sinclair, might be another reason. An alternative powder funnel would be another - the 'Forster Blue Ribbon Powder Funnel with Long Drop Tube'.

I didn't notice calipers in your list.

Powder Measure Stand: A powder measure stand might not be absolutely necessary - you can mount the measure on a press using the 'offset plate'. If you do want a stand, the Hornady quick-release system works great for powder measures. Unscrewing long threads while holding a measure full of powder in order to empty it is a pain, and discourages returning the powder to the bottle where it belongs between sessions. The Hornady system uses a bayonet fitting.

Lube: I've always liked Imperial dry lube for neck sizing, but I've never used the balls. Wax is equally or more popular though. For FL sizing I make my own spray lube, so my lube pad and RCBS lube sit idle.

..

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:54 pm**

HALODIN wrote:That's very interesting thanks. Do reloading books cover this level of detail?

Dombo63 wrote:The main determinant of accuracy is the jump before the bullet ogive engages with the rifling. The powder charge just determines how far the bullet will travel before it goes subsonic. I helped a mate test some homeloads on Short Siberia at 100 yards. 12 rounds, same load but with different COL representing a 0.02" or so range in 0.005" increments in groups of three. For a given load and bullet weight, he was able to determine the best COL. So my advice would be continue taking advice but also save money on a lab-level electronic scale, get a good beam scale and a Hornady or similar collimator.

The Lee book did mention it but I got most of the detail from said mate when he did a short course at our club.
BTW re cleaning have you considered using stainless steel media? I gave some used brass to another mate to clean and they came back like new inside and out. If I'd had a small enough spoon I would quite happily have eaten out of them.

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