LBR restrictions/law

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joe

Re: LBR restrictions/law

#61 Post by joe »

Andy632 wrote:Another Brain teaser question on long barrelled handguns.

What about Air Pistols?

Do the same criteria of Barrel length & overall length apply to them as well??

Air Pistol restricted to 6 ft/lbs.
Air Rifle restricted to 12 ft/lbs without a licence.

Can one turn an Air Rifle into a Long-barrelled Air Pistol (12"" barrel & over 24") and have it over 6ft/lbs & less than 12ft/lbs and remain legal??

no, since the act states the term "rifle" and "pistol" and thus will interperted by the courts to the ordinary defination of a rifle / pistol (the goldern rules; "The golden rule of statutory interpretation may be applied where an application of the literal rule would lead to an absurdity. The courts may then apply a secondary meaning. (River Wear Commissioners v Adamson) (1876-77) L.R. 2 App Cas 743." and R v Allen (1872)

Decisions are generally more in line with Parliament's intention, so in this case parliments intention was that all air rifles (as defined by the ordinary defination of a rifle) to be limited 12 ft lbs a long barreled air pistol that was manufactored as one, is still a pistol by ordinary defination, (if it is designed to be fired by one hand)


firearms act 1997 does not define what a hangun or rifle is! just bans firearms that not within a certain barrel length and overall length! (with a few execptions) hence why long barrel revolvers and pistols are not subject to general prohibtion !

this why i think long barrel centre fire semi auto pistols wouldnt be section 5 ! but i dont think anyone has the balls to put it to the test !
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Sim G
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Re: LBR restrictions/law

#62 Post by Sim G »

joe wrote:firearms act 1997 does not define what a hangun or rifle is! just bans firearms that not within a certain barrel length and overall length! (with a few execptions) hence why long barrel revolvers and pistols are not subject to general prohibtion !

this why i think long barrel centre fire semi auto pistols wouldnt be section 5 ! but i dont think anyone has the balls to put it to the test !

It was the Ammendment Act of '88 why "long barrel centre fire semi auto pistols" are subject to S5.

S5. (1)

(ab)any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges.
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
joe

Re: LBR restrictions/law

#63 Post by joe »

Sim G wrote:
joe wrote:firearms act 1997 does not define what a hangun or rifle is! just bans firearms that not within a certain barrel length and overall length! (with a few execptions) hence why long barrel revolvers and pistols are not subject to general prohibtion !

this why i think long barrel centre fire semi auto pistols wouldnt be section 5 ! but i dont think anyone has the balls to put it to the test !

It was the Ammendment Act of '88 why "long barrel centre fire semi auto pistols" are subject to S5.

S5. (1)

(ab)any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges.
incorrect see below :

(ab) any self-loading or pump-action rifle other than
one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire
cartridges;



notice the term rifle is apllied here!
M99

Re: LBR restrictions/law

#64 Post by M99 »

joe wrote:
Sim G wrote:
joe wrote:firearms act 1997 does not define what a hangun or rifle is! just bans firearms that not within a certain barrel length and overall length! (with a few execptions) hence why long barrel revolvers and pistols are not subject to general prohibtion !

this why i think long barrel centre fire semi auto pistols wouldnt be section 5 ! but i dont think anyone has the balls to put it to the test !

It was the Ammendment Act of '88 why "long barrel centre fire semi auto pistols" are subject to S5.

S5. (1)

(ab)any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges.
incorrect see below :

(ab) any self-loading or pump-action rifle other than
one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire
cartridges;



notice the term rifle is apllied here!

Joe.

No you are wrong - maybe you should have read the rest of the act!

Section 5(1)(ab) any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire, e.g. short barrelled rifles;

Section as above - does NOT say Rifle - it says rifled - so no Long Barrelled Semi Auto - Semi autos in all but 22lr ARE section 5.
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Sim G
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Re: LBR restrictions/law

#65 Post by Sim G »

As Mike says, the wording of the act is "rifled gun", not rifle.
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
Mikaveli

Re: LBR restrictions/law

#66 Post by Mikaveli »

MiLisCer wrote: Joe.

No you are wrong - maybe you should have read the rest of the act!

Section 5(1)(ab) any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire, e.g. short barrelled rifles;

Section as above - does NOT say Rifle - it says rifled - so no Long Barrelled Semi Auto - Semi autos in all but 22lr ARE section 5.
Not quite.

Semi auto's in .22 rim-fire are all ok, so not just .22 LR, but also .22 WMR and so on...

Also, any smooth bore gun with any overall length of 40" or more is fine.

The fact that my cert means I could buy a smooth bore semi auto AK (well, Saiga) with drum mags and hundreds of rifled slugs kinda makes a mockery of the SLR ban.
IainWR
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Re: LBR restrictions/law

#67 Post by IainWR »

Ginger wrote:Iain,

as the NRA doesn't have 'Legal Team', how about on your return you speak to the NRA firearms liaison offices who can speak to the Head of Surreys Firearms licensing and get definitive answer on both.

I think people quoting "Wiki's" from the web without being hold of the full facts is dangerous, (yes I have done it).

Hi Ginger

I am the NRA Firearms Liaison Officer!

Iain
joe

Re: LBR restrictions/law

#68 Post by joe »

copy and pasted from firearms act 1988



Prohibited weapons and ammunition.
(1) Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 (in this
Act referred to as “the principal Act”) shall have
effect with the following amendments the purpose
of which is to extend the class of prohibited
weapons and ammunition, that is to say weapons
and ammunition the possession, purchase,
acquisition, manufacture, sale or transfer of
which requires the authority of the Secretary of
State.
(2) For paragraph (a) of subsection (1) there shall be
substituted—
“(a) any firearm which is so designed or adapted that
two or more missiles can be successively
discharged without repeated pressure on the
trigger;
(ab) any self-loading or pump-action rifle other than
one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire
cartridges;
(ac) any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore
gun which is not chambered for .22 rim-fire
cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24
inches in length or (excluding any detachable,
folding, retractable or other movable butt-stock)
is less than 40 inches in length overall;
(ad) any smooth-bore revolver gun other than one
which is chambered for 9mm. rim-fire cartridges
or loaded at the muzzle end of each chamber;
(ae) any rocket launcher, or any mortar, for projecting
a stabilised missile, other than a launcher or
mortar designed for line-throwing or pyrotechnic
purposes or as signalling apparatus;”.
(3) For paragraph (c) of subsection (1) there shall be
substituted—
“(c) any cartridge with a bullet designed to explode
on or immediately before impact, any ammunition
containing or designed or adapted to contain any
such noxious thing as is mentioned in paragraph
(b) above and, if capable of being used with a
firearm of any description, any grenade, bomb (or
other like missile), or rocket or shell designed to
explode as aforesaid.”
(4) If it appears to the Secretary of State that the
provisions of the principal Act relating to
prohibited weapons or ammunition should apply
to—
(a) any firearm (not being an air weapon) which is
not for the time being specified in subsection (1)
of section 5, was not lawfully on sale in Great
Britain in substantial numbers at any time before
1988 and appears to him to be—
(i) specially dangerous; or
(ii) wholly or partly composed of material making it
not readily detectable by apparatus used for
detecting metal objects; or
(b) any ammunition which is not for the time being
specified in that subsection but appears to him to
be specially dangerous,
he may by order add it to the weapons or
ammunition specified in that subsection whether
by altering the description of any weapon or
ammunition for the time being there specified or
otherwise.
(5) The power to make an order under subsection (4)
above shall be exercisable by statutory
instrument and no such order shall be made
unless a draft of it has been laid before and
approved by a resolution of each House of
Parliament.
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Sim G
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Re: LBR restrictions/law

#69 Post by Sim G »

Which was amended to read "rifled gun" in 1997.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/5
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
Ginger
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Re: LBR restrictions/law

#70 Post by Ginger »

IainWR wrote:
Ginger wrote:Iain,

as the NRA doesn't have 'Legal Team', how about on your return you speak to the NRA firearms liaison offices who can speak to the Head of Surreys Firearms licensing and get definitive answer on both.

I think people quoting "Wiki's" from the web without being hold of the full facts is dangerous, (yes I have done it).

Hi Ginger

I am the NRA Firearms Liaison Officer!

Iain
Hi Iain,

If thats the case on your return could you liaise with Surrey Police so that we can cut out the hear say and have a proper legal statement issued by the NRA on the matter?

Thank you
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