New laws coming?

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TattooedGun
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Re: New laws coming?

#511 Post by TattooedGun »

Blackstuff wrote:Too true! :cry:

I've sent my 2p worth to the consultation email address;

Dear sir/madam,

Thank you for the opportunity to send my views to you in regard to the above consultation. I wish to make it clear that i am an active firearms owner/user and that is primarily my interest in this consultation. On that note, i have to say that i find it quite insulting that lawfully owned firearms, and by extension, their owners, have been 'lumped in' with proposals relating to vicious acid attacks. If i were more cynical i would say that the firearms element of this consultation has been 'by the back door' and i am thankful that various shooting bodies and forums have made the shooting community aware of it. I would certainly hope that it was intended to be published when it was, and it wasn't 'tagged on' to get the maximum impact because of the horrendous shooting in Las Vegas that week.

The proposal to make .50BMG rifles and 'certain rapid fire rifles' (which still has not been clarified exactly what is meant by this, although it is presumed by the text that this refers to the VZ58 MARS action guns sold by Caledonian Classic Arms), Section 5 (Prohibited) does not appear to be evidence or incident based. The firearms part of the consultation paper begins by outlining an increase in firearms offences but fails to demonstrate or even acknowledge whether these offences are being carried out with legally owned firearms, let alone 50cal and 'rapid fire rifles', or (much more likely) illegal, already prohibited firearms. There appears to be a deliberate effort to try and link the two but without providing any evidence whatsoever. It is my understanding that neither legally owned 50cal or MARS rifles have ever been used in a crime or terrorist attack in the UK, possibly because both are found in low quantities in this country, possibly because the current licensing system actually works and also possibly, because the type of criminals/terrorists who would use such firearms have no difficulty sourcing them illegally/outside the control of firearms legislation.

The notion that a serious criminal/terrorist is going to expose themselves to police/security forces attention by applying for a Firearms Certificate to obtain one of these guns legally is bordering on the ludicrous so it can only be assumed that the 'threat' comes from the loss or theft of the firearms. Loss of a firearm that is solely used at a rifle range (they are not practical guns for pest control etc) is exceptionally unlikely, given the nature of gun clubs in the UK i.e. the guns are used from firing points and rarely, if ever, with only one person there. Even if they were somehow left behind it is again very unlikely that they wouldn't be found quickly by other members or the staff at the range. Given the size of .50cal rifles and the cost of both types, i think it is exceedingly unlikely that an owners mind would slip and leave one behind. While there is always the risk of theft of a legally owned firearm, surely the requirement for additional security would be a more proportionate response than completely banning them? It is my understanding that the targeted theft of firearms is exceedingly low, to the point that I have been unable to obtain figures on the matter and thefts of guns are generally an opportunist type crime when safes are broken into for other items.

Further, the idea that banning such firearms would prevent crimes being committed with that type of firearm has no empirical backing, given that fully-automatic firearms have essentially been banned since 1937, and 'proper' handguns being banned since 1997, yet both are still used in the commission of crime to this very day, with both types of gun being used at the Halloween party shooting in Leyton recently. It is also noted that the Office of National Statistics shows that handguns are still the most common firearm* used in firearm crime and murder. Why this lesson STILL hasn't apparently been learned by Whitehall is a mystery to me and the shooting community as a whole.

(*actual firearm, not air gun or replica)

Aside from the empirical evidence showing that 'banning' guns does not work, a person determined to do harm to others does not need to use a firearm, as the horrible vehicle attacks this year and last within the EU and UK have clearly demonstrated. I understand that the government at times needs to be 'seen to do something', but placating the general public by pretending that the proposals outlined will somehow make them any more safe is at best dishonest.

Crime, violence and murder are the result of a complex mix of socio-economic factors and gun control legislation has little, if any influence. I have seen several letters of response from MP's regarding this consultation that trot out the same tired nonsense about a USA Vs UK comparison between so-called lax and strict gun control. What most of them seem oblivious to is that the UK has always had relatively low gun crime and murder, even before we had ANY gun control at all in this country. If i was being lazy i'd say that gun violence has become worse in the latter half of the last century and beginning of the 21stC, while gun control has become more and more restrictive, as 'evidence' that firearms legislation doesn't work, however the two issues are unrelated from one another.

I have also seen a bizarre response from an MP stating that reducing the availability of firearms would somehow impact upon suicide levels, with examples of World Health Organisation statistics showing that the US has more gun suicides than the UK as if that somehow means something. Of course the US will have a greater number of gun suicides than the UK because they have a much larger population, and more people there own guns! If high gun ownership levels directly equated to high suicide rates then the US would be the top of the WHO's suicide rate chart with Finland, Norway, Greenland etc coming up close behind and places like China, Japan, Lithuania and the UK far lower. Examination of the WHO data clearly shows this is not the case, and yet again it is socio-economic reasons that lead people to suicide rather than the means the person has available to them to achieve their goal.

To go back to the consultation documentation, it is noted in the 'risk assessment' that only 3 options are given for possible courses of action (Do nothing, and two different flavours of banning the guns). There are at least two other options that i can think of including; similar to the Brocock revolvers, give existing owners Section 5 authority to remain in possession of the guns already in circulation, but prohibit their sale/transfer, so once the current owners pass away, or no longer wish to own the guns, they are handed into the police for destruction. While i firmly disagree that these guns are any more dangerous than any other currently legal firearms, this would at least be a reasonable compromise and would mean that there would be no requirement to pay compensation, thus saving the taxpayer the expense. Another option would be to require enhanced security to be provided to retain ownership of these firearms. A monitored house alarm, vehicle safe etc would minimise the chance of theft of such guns.

To summarise;

- Banning guns does not work. If it did, handguns would not be the #1 type of firearm used in crime now despite being 'banned' for 20 years.
- Legally owned 50cal and MARS guns have no record of being used in crime or terrorism as they are not attractive guns for such criminals.
- 'What if'/no evidence based legislation is fundamentally bad legislation. The perceived actions of those who operate outside of the law should not dictate the freedoms of those who obey the law.
- Currently S5 guns are apparently freely available to criminals and there is seemingly no desire from the criminal/terrorist fraternity to obtain .50cal/MARS guns.
- Other means of causing injury and death are far more easily obtainable, and arguably more effective i.e. large vehicles.

It is time for the government to take a serious approach to tackling the socio-economic factors (employment, poverty, gang culture, lack of integration etc) which actually cause crime and terrorism and stop pretending that preventing Mr Smith from shooting a 50cal/MARS/handgun/semi-auto rifle at the local rifle range has had/will have any impact on day-to-day violence and the criminal use of firearms.

I would be most obliged if you could take the above into consideration and acknowledge receipt of this email.

If you require any clarification of the above, please do not hesitate to contact me on this email address.

Yours faithfully

Mr Blackstuff
Excellently put.

I do doubt whether it will sink in or if they will even read it all, nevermind take the information on board. But We can only try to educate these people that "work for us"...
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WelshShooter
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Re: New laws coming?

#512 Post by WelshShooter »

Wondering if anybody has read the Impact Assessment? Here's a brief overview of the problem statement along with the objective of the ban. They have clearly defined that "certain rapid firing rifles" from the original statement is indeed the MARS rifle system. Please see the second link below for the full Impact Assessment.
What is the problem under consideration? Why is government intervention necessary?
There is concern about the availability of .50 calibre and rapid-fire Manually Actuated Release
System (MARS) rifles being available to some civilian firearms licence holders. The range and
penetrative power of 0.50 calibre rifles makes them more dangerous than other common
firearms and were they to be used in criminal or terrorist activities would present a serious
threat to the public and would be uniquely difficult for the police to control. Due to the rate of
discharge MARS rifles pose a comparable risk to the public and police as other self-loading
weapons already banned in the UK. The Government need to intervene to ensure the purchase,
ownership or possession is illegal.


What are the policy objectives and the intended effects?
The policy intends to remove the availability of these firearms for civilian sale and purchase, rental,
loan or use, to reduce the risk of any involvement of one of these rifles in a criminal or terrorist
incident.
Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... egislation
Impact Assessment: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... rearms.pdf
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Re: New laws coming?

#513 Post by Daryll »

Airbrush wrote:
Not much to be positive about that, did you ask for his personal views?

I thought it was positive that he'd even read my letter and had responded to it... !!

( I'm easily pleased.... :) )
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bnz41
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Re: New laws coming?

#514 Post by bnz41 »

Quote...Taken from this https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... rearms.pdf The police have records of 64 .50 calibre rifles registered to private individuals in the UK in 2017.

Yet FCSA-UK state....Thirteen years in the running, an impeccable safety record and with over 400 members we are slowly becoming one of the largest rifle clubs in the UK.

So how many .50 cal shooters are there in the UK..do all 400 FCSA members own a .50....
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Re: New laws coming?

#515 Post by JSC »

bnz41 wrote: So how many .50 cal shooters are there in the UK..do all 400 FCSA members own a .50....
Clearly not, unless the Police have lost track of several rifles...
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Re: New laws coming?

#516 Post by BooBoo »

I suspect that NFLMS has not been interrogated for the metric equivalent...

The problem with banning a calibre is that you then have to compensate for all of the ancillaries... and most of the kit for 50 is calibre specific.

So, not only are numbers wide of the mark but costs do not factor in any of the above.

I would say that circa. 80% of those on the FCSA line out are shooting rifles other than 50 cal.

Opportune moment, legislate by the back door, non specific in terms of rifles "such as"??? Time for every shooter to stand up and be counted...
Laurie

Re: New laws coming?

#517 Post by Laurie »

bnz41 wrote:Quote...Taken from this https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... rearms.pdf The police have records of 64 .50 calibre rifles registered to private individuals in the UK in 2017.

Yet FCSA-UK state....Thirteen years in the running, an impeccable safety record and with over 400 members we are slowly becoming one of the largest rifle clubs in the UK.

So how many .50 cal shooters are there in the UK..do all 400 FCSA members own a .50....
There are more 338 Lapua Magnums used in FCSA range days than .50s, being much cheaper beasts to run and managing with more normal size and weight rifles. There are various other 'super-cartridges' around that cannot be fired on run of the mill MoD gallery type ranges and are used by FCSA members.
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Re: New laws coming?

#518 Post by WelshShooter »

bnz41 wrote:Quote...Taken from this https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... rearms.pdf The police have records of 64 .50 calibre rifles registered to private individuals in the UK in 2017.

Yet FCSA-UK state....Thirteen years in the running, an impeccable safety record and with over 400 members we are slowly becoming one of the largest rifle clubs in the UK.

So how many .50 cal shooters are there in the UK..do all 400 FCSA members own a .50....
I've not seen more than half a dozen fifty calibre rifles shooting when I've attended FCSA shoots, however, this might be limited to dedicated spaces on the range to shoot rather than a lack of fifty calibre shooters on the firing point. There are other HME calibres such as .408 Cheyenne Tac, .338 Lapua Magnum and so on, which can be used for long range shooting. I wouldn't be surprised if these type of calibres make up for the lower number of .50 cal rifles.
BooBoo wrote:I suspect that NFLMS has not been interrogated for the metric equivalent...

The problem with banning a calibre is that you then have to compensate for all of the ancillaries... and most of the kit for 50 is calibre specific.

So, not only are numbers wide of the mark but costs do not factor in any of the above.

I would say that circa. 80% of those on the FCSA line out are shooting rifles other than 50 cal.

Opportune moment, legislate by the back door, non specific in terms of rifles "such as"??? Time for every shooter to stand up and be counted...
The Impact Assessment repeats that shooting clubs and the like grossly overestimate the cost of re-reimbursement. But have they not considered that a lot of people handload for .50 cal rifles? The equipment is more expensive that typical equipment (e.g. press, priming tools, trimming tools) and what about the consumables, are they to be compensated for? Equipment on the range should be taken account, for example, I doubt people would "need" to have a range finder capable of accurately measuring the extreme long distances, therefore are those people going to be reimbursed for such equipment?
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bnz41
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Re: New laws coming?

#519 Post by bnz41 »

Ok thanks for the info.

So I guess these will be next then.

"There are other HME calibres such as .408 Cheyenne Tac, .338 Lapua Magnum and so on, which can be used for long range shooting. I wouldn't be surprised if these type of calibres make up for the lower number of .50 cal rifles".

If those people in power are worried about long range shootings.
Laurie

Re: New laws coming?

#520 Post by Laurie »

bnz41 wrote:Ok thanks for the info.

So I guess these will be next then.

"There are other HME calibres such as .408 Cheyenne Tac, .338 Lapua Magnum and so on, which can be used for long range shooting. I wouldn't be surprised if these type of calibres make up for the lower number of .50 cal rifles".

If those people in power are worried about long range shootings.
Yes, but try and ban those and the HO immediately runs into the issue of African dangerous game calibres / cartridges - a subject that they've been badly burned over in the past and which have recognised 'good uses' that even HMG would have great difficulty in overturning (should they wish to do so which is unlikely, anyway).

The 50BMG and minor wildcatted variations of it should anybody try that avenue is quite easily defined in law - ie a 50 cal (or any other calibre range they might wish to restrict) and whose factory loadings produce more than xx,000 ft/lb ME. (I think 50BMG mil/factory spec is somewhere above 12,000 ft/lbs which exceeds that of even the largest elephant busters.)

However, if I were a 50BMG dedicated ELR owner and had my kit banned, I'd use the compensation to have a 375 Cheytac or similar, or a 40 to 41 calibre ELR calibre rifle built to replace it. If you look at the US 'King of Two Miles' comp results, they are actually more effective chamberings than the 50BMG when you get into ultra long-range shooting. Maybe not so-called anti-materiel, which might satisfy the civil servants and police, but more 'dangerous' in the hands of a deranged sniper.

Yet again 'solutions' to either non-existent or imagined 'problems' that are not only not needed, but could even 'backfire' on their proponents.
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