The Best Service rifles ever (argument starter)

[huntervixen]

Does anyone know what the facts are (as opposed to rumor) regarding the Government "borrowing" the AR18 gas piston/bolt design for the L85A1?

Not the first time though, look at the Sterling SMG, the Government started making their own (unlicensed version) without asking....massive legal stink that was eventually settled out of court!

They did the same thing with Webley, borrowed the design of the Webley IV revolver,
(had the common decency to at least modify the design that time) and got Enfield to bang them out as the No2 revolver......also settled out of court!

[Sim G]

Does anyone know what the facts are (as opposed to rumor) regarding the Government "borrowing" the AR18 gas piston/bolt design for the L85A1?

The "facts"? Not sure what you're getting at. But yes, just look at the designs of both weapons to see that the AR18 uses the Stoner rotary bolt and the Sievre short stroke piston from the FAL, as does the SA80.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the design team at Enfield also got the ideas of using stamping for the upper and lower from the AR18 as well....

Really when you look at it, an awful lot of small arms can trace their lineage back a considerable way.....

[saddler]

Does anyone know what the facts are (as opposed to rumor) regarding the Government "borrowing" the AR18 gas piston/bolt design for the L85A1?

It's almost Xmas
Drop some hints



page 21 onwards; FIRST bullpup mock up just happened to have been built on an AR-18 receiver, direct photo comparison of the AR-18 / bullpup bolts

It WASN't "the gubbermant" it WAS Enfield management & the design was not "borrowed" it was outright stolen; the AR-18 receivers used for the bullpup dummies were acquired... Enfield management had a guided tour of the AR-18 production facilities; soon after they happened to buy identical machines from the same suppliers

The "SA-80" WAS & IS a joke.
A mate I used to shoot with & has long since emigrated worked with the bloke that was the head designer of the project.
The budget was about 85% used up before this chap realised that he'd only been sorting out the externals & had not looked at the internal working parts!! My mates assessment of the chap - starts with W & rhymes with anchor

Get the above book

[toffe wrapper]

Lots of stories, myth, fact and fiction around the uk bullpup,
EM2 quashed by churchill who had shares in FN
EM2 designed to be machined from solid casting SA80 stamp and rivet.
Were the Royal Anglians were pictured trialing a 4.85 SA 80 but NATO round was 5.56.

The only true fact is the first ones were s***. I got my first one in Feb 1989 my second one in March 1989. I could keep the thing firing most of the time but could not stop bits falling off or breaking.

TW

[meles meles]

The Rifle L85A1 was always accurate but not very well put together, to put things politely...

The A2 version, however, is rather diffferent. it retains the accuracy of the A1 but is very reliable- more so than anything I ever used bar the AK47, and that's a pretty close call ! Shame it fires that weedy 5.56 cartridge...

[saddler]

Lots of stories, myth, fact and fiction around the uk bullpup,
EM2 quashed by churchill who had shares in FN
EM2 designed to be machined from solid casting SA80 stamp and rivet.

EM-2 WAS quashed by Churchill. What part are you saying is NOT TRUE about that?
LOTS of potentially world beating British projects were killed off in the 50's/60's to keep the septics happy

Want hard FACTS on the EM-2?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... ition=used

$1,000 - but with free post!

[dave_303]

The guys from forgotten weapons have done an interesting video on the EM-2

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/british-em-2/

Saddler, have just checked out Collectors Grade Publications, absolutely fascinating and many book I would love to have but at a minimum of $39 per book and even on Amazon as £35 I think not, just bought 2 core texts for uni at £35 and £25

[dave_303]

Copy of the EM-2 book for £182 in the UK

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Military ... 370&sr=8-1


Sorry double checked, its a different book

[ordnance]

The SA/80 one of the worst modern rifles to be put into service. The number of sales to other countries says it all. All new weapons have teething problems but the SA/80 toke it to a new level.

Bayonet – tip breaks, fails to stay on, the retaining clips on the frog fracture, wire cutter distorts if used to actually cut wire, sharpening stone falls off.
BFA – carbon build-up after firing causes problems in removal, leading to the screw being damaged when this is tried;
Bipod – does not stay in when in the up position, the retaining screw sometimes falls out;
Body Locking Pins – either seize up or fall out;
Bolt – erosion from gases around the firing pin hole, fails to close or function properly if dirt, dust or sand get into the locking lugs;
Butt – pulls out the retaining screws if pressure is applied via the sling to the rear sling loop;
Butt Strap – stop lugs break, making the item unusable.
Cleaning Kit – oil bottle leaks or cap splits, pull-through snaps or cannot be pulled through barrel, combination tool breaks or falls apart, brushes break or unwind or just inadequate to do the job, the rod 'T' piece fails to lock.
CWS – difficult to attain the proper eye relief when wearing a helmet.
Ejection Opening Cover (EOC) – breaks or freezes shut in arctic conditions.
Ejector – fails to work, works erratically, still occasionally ejects case into firer's face, and in arctic conditions it freezes and fails to work.
Extractor – sharp edges can cut brass from the case with the debris causing it to jam.
Firing Pin – springs can loose strength and allow weak strikes, the tip fractures after long bursts on automatic.
Functioning – ammunition fails to feed properly, rounds fail to eject, insufficient gas to cycle the weapon (especially in arctic conditions when locking lugs are fouled up), weapon fails to function unless spotlessly clean and well-oiled.
Gas Plug – carbon deposits make removal difficult and doing so sometimes causes damage preventing re-assembly and gas-system operation.
Guide Rod Assembly – spring weak, guide rods can distort or become loose.
Hand Guards – brittle (especially in arctic conditions) with no means of repair once cracked due to heat shield inserts.
HOD – fails to function and the button breaks off.
Iron Sights – fracture if struck at the right angle, while the retaining screw breaks.
Magazine Catch – fails to lock magazine when a full magazine is loaded, sometimes releases the magazine when the weapon is carried across the chest, in arctic conditions the magazine can freeze in place.
Muzzle Cover – no way of keeping it secured on the weapon, use in arctic conditions causes it to freeze to the flash eliminator and shrapnel effects if fired through.
Rear Sling Loop – distorts or pulls off the butt if any pressure is applied.
Sight Rail – inconsistent welding leads to failure, rusting occurs under the rail itself.
SUSAT – loss of adjusting screw lock nuts, loose sight clamp, range drum prone to jamming, eye lens prone to misting up and the rubber cap and front hood fill with snow in arctic conditions).
Top Cover – catch fails leading to the cover opening.
Trigger Mechanism – trigger fails to reassert when weapon set on 'R', the hammer stops distort and break, interceptor sear jams on hammer stud, safety sear does not always engage on the hammer fully or occasionally at all.
Sight Cover – too rigid with no method of retention.
Sling – plastic parts break. And that's just some of the problems as for the SA/80 a2 it took 100 million and a German company to turn it into a usable weapon.


A useful link. SA80 (Small Arms for the 1980s): The Sorry Saga of the British ...


http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_SA80.html

[saddler]

SOME of the Collector Grade titles I have I paid well into 3 figure sums for...
The EM-2 book I found after about 20 years, and I got LUCKY with the price I paid for that one!!
Aside from a few titles that I have no interest in I have most of the series...and all the Chandler "Death from Afar" titles...and all four volumes of "The Worlds...." by Nelson/Musgrave (the last volume, #4, took me decades to find!!)

Amazon are a RIP OFF with some pricing structures - even worse than MidwayUK (& that's a hard example to beat)

e.g. I bought this about a month back for under $100, on Amazon USA - look at the price now!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Remington-7 ... R9FZNGSOI4
Back when I bought it the Amazon UK price was about a 350% mark up of the Amazon US price!