The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Gaz wrote:If I understand it right, it is acceptable under the NRA rules to load (i.e. close the bolt on a live round) with the rifle out of the shoulder, and then bring it up on aim? So long as the rifle remains "horizontal" for the purposes of the 3 degree rule, throughout?

Actually, no. It needs to be horizontal during the actual bolt closure (locking) only - it would be practically impossible to come on aim from having the rifle on the ground and to keep it horizontal. The whole point of the rule is to contain a round that fires unexpectedly during bolt closure, e.g. due to a broken firing pin (like a swing 2-part), broken trigger, protruding primer etc. This is most likely to happen as the lugs engage and lock.

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Dougan (and others)

Do beware of thinking that a breech flag guarantees that a rifle is safe. It does not. The technical name for a breech flag is Empty Chamber Indicator (ECI) and that is all it does - it shows that the chamber is empty. I have been on the range when someone took the breech flag out, closed the bolt and fired the live round that had been nestling behind the flag. This has happened on at least three occassions that I am aware of this century. One of these was on a trigger check during the DCRA Meeting - the RCO was surprised to say the least. One was when dry firing at the start of a competition in Canada - the round had been in the gun since the end of the previous event. One was behind the firing point at Bisley when the shooter closed the bolt and pulled the trigger to "ease springs" before putting the gun in a case. There has also been at least one case where a diligent RO, noting that a competitor was not returning the correct number of sighters, investigated and found the missing live round in the rifle behind the breech flag. The competitor who signed the card as having checked the rifle was excluded from further competition. Hence the rule that in showing that your rifle is clear you MUST remove the bolt. Having shown clear, you may if you wish put the bolt back and insert a breech flag.

IainWR wrote:Dougan (and others)

Do beware of thinking that a breech flag guarantees that a rifle is safe. It does not. The technical name for a breech flag is Empty Chamber Indicator (ECI) and that is all it does - it shows that the chamber is empty. I have been on the range when someone took the breech flag out, closed the bolt and fired the live round that had been nestling behind the flag. This has happened on at least three occassions that I am aware of this century. One of these was on a trigger check during the DCRA Meeting - the RCO was surprised to say the least. One was when dry firing at the start of a competition in Canada - the round had been in the gun since the end of the previous event. One was behind the firing point at Bisley when the shooter closed the bolt and pulled the trigger to "ease springs" before putting the gun in a case. There has also been at least one case where a diligent RO, noting that a competitor was not returning the correct number of sighters, investigated and found the missing live round in the rifle behind the breech flag. The competitor who signed the card as having checked the rifle was excluded from further competition. Hence the rule that in showing that your rifle is clear you MUST remove the bolt. Having shown clear, you may if you wish put the bolt back and insert a breech flag.

out of interest, how does this work with straight pull rifles such as my AUG ? I can pull the bolt, but it requires a full strip down :P my normal practise is to drop the mag,lock back the bolt, have it independently checked clear, and then put a flag (in this case a large cable tie, as it eats normal breech flags) into the breech, is this wrong?

rox wrote:

Gaz wrote:If I understand it right, it is acceptable under the NRA rules to load (i.e. close the bolt on a live round) with the rifle out of the shoulder, and then bring it up on aim? So long as the rifle remains "horizontal" for the purposes of the 3 degree rule, throughout?

Actually, no. It needs to be horizontal during the actual bolt closure (locking) only - it would be practically impossible to come on aim from having the rifle on the ground and to keep it horizontal. The whole point of the rule is to contain a round that fires unexpectedly during bolt closure, e.g. due to a broken firing pin (like a swing 2-part), broken trigger, protruding primer etc. This is most likely to happen as the lugs engage and lock.

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OK, that makes sense. But what happens to the firer if that round fires with the rifle out of the shoulder? That's what I'm getting at - I'm thinking uncontrolled recoil will almost definitely lead to injury.

Kennyc

My answer would be that a straight-pull gun isn't what is meant by a bolt-action, and the "equivalent procedures" would apply. Of course, in competition straight-pulls are generally being used in CSR/PR events, and there is one-on-one supervision by someone who is not themselves shooting. And when you take the mag off, any round hiding in the back of the working parts should fall out. Also, at the end of the inspection to show clear, do you fire off the action downrange - so if you've got it wrong it's safe, but everybody knows about it? So we accept that the procedure does not need as many safeguards built in because the inspection process has the same result for a straight pull as removing the bolt does for a TR (anything that shouldn't be there falls out) and it will be carried out thoroughly and correctly in the first place. I know that's all a bit wooly, but the rules completely predate the concept of straight-pull guns. I think an amendment to indicate that a straight-pull or lever-release action is to be treated as if it was a semi-auto might clarify that point.

Iain

Iain, I understand what you are saying and I think that treating straight pull and lever release actions based on semi auto actions is the way to go, with the proviso that flags are in before they leave the firing point. My straight pull K31 gets the bolt removed or a flag inserted but then that straight pull is a bolt action