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We had a very local RFD/Gunshop that supplied mostly game shooting related ammunition and equipment, his stock of firearms was based mostly on this as well. I did try and use him 2-3 times but was always greeted with a terse "No" whenever I asked fo anything, even basic to me things like .303/.308 ammunition and rifle primers, it was always a "There is no call for such stuff around here" and he would go back to chatting to his mate and his cup of tea. The shop closed a while ago.

I can think of another one within ten miles that is going to go the same way unless they are careful. They have a better stock and are keen to get into the reloading side of things but just don't seem to want to talk to people.

Sim & Dave,

I think perhaps this is a symptom of narrow minded dealers.

It's honestly not like that here. My nearest dealers are both businesses run from home - one is literaly 2 mins by car and another 30mins. Both primarily serve the stalkers, pest controllers and shot gunners due to being within farming communities. However both will readily buy in any target orientated ammunition, components or kit provided you're willing to leave a deposit or pay in advance for the more expensive stuff.

My nearest target orientated club, Clyde Valley also includes a healthy number of stalkers/hunters and those wishing to try. In addittion i also benefit from being able to buy reloading components in bulk from a member who has a dealers ticket (hunting and target orientated).

Sure there exists kit that is difficult to get, but the dealers here are keen to help and will source it for you provided you don't stab them in the back by ordering expensive stuff and failing to pick up/buy. Its the big businesses like Glasgow fieldsports that you have to stear clear of - haven't a clue and eye watering prices.

Its how the NRA should be; supportive of any and all types of shooting. The other organisations are, so why can't they?

MiLisCer wrote:Iain,

Couple more questions/observations. (I have aimed this at you, but it is really aimed at the NRA - it is just easier to address it to a "person")

I've noted through a few responses the separation between those who shoot game/animals and those who target shoot.

So as an example, if a motion was tabled to "ban" live quarry shooting with firearms in the UK - would the NRA oppose this or not?
Because I am 100% certain that if a ban on "target" shooting was proposed, those live quarry shooters would oppose it on mass.

I have it on good authority that one of the (Many) reasons and actually quite a sticking point on the merger between the NRA and the CPSA was the CPSA's refusal to drop the word pigeon from the sport (I know the Scots and Welsh have) - can you shed some light on this? (This comes from a very good source high up in the CPSA)

I also think the NRA's short sighted attitude that "quarry" shooters are of no interest to them is very niaive, these people hold SGC and FAC and as a supposed National organisation who wish to be the governing body for shooting sports within the UK - they should target (no pun intended) all shooters. Encourage these to participate in different sides of the sport and protect its future.

As an example, BASC do not discriminate between the two disciplines and even have their own Rifle club.

You need to unite and not divide.

Mike

Mike

Personally, I would oppose a ban on hunting with firearms. I am not the NRA. I do not make policy.

Your good authority is talking bo...cks. I am happy for you to tell him so from me. You cannot legally merge a commercial organisation with a charity in any equitable way.

Do you know what a strawman argument is? You have just demonstrated it quite nicely. You make the completely unsupported allegation that the NRA has a short sighted attitude that quarry shooters are of no interest, then criticise us for dividing the sport when it is you who has postulated that we do.

Iain

Scotsgun wrote:
Its how the NRA should be; supportive of any and all types of shooting. The other organisations are, so why can't they?

Errrr ... I don't notice CPSA doing much about Target Rifle, or NSRA providing zeroing facilities for large game, or BASC offering loss-of-licence legal expenses insurance. Each of the major organisations has its own specialisations and we try not to tread on the others' toes and to direct the shooter to the place most suited to their interests. The NRA supports shooting in all its legitimate forms, but there is absolutely no point in us duplicating BASCs highly competent gamekeeping and stalking advice teams for example, just as there is no point in them getting involved in rule setting for World Championship TR events.

Iain

Iain,

I think perhaps the points are becoming unclear due to the numbers bouncing back and forth?

To be clear, how the NRA could satisfy me:

1. Actively support any and all legal forms of shooting. Actively, visibly. If one form or another is under threat then show real visible and lasting support. I do not accept a representative of the NRA standing up at a meeting and explaining away the lack of support for fighting the pistol ban as its not their primary form of shooting.

2. Take an interest in the clubs. Something more than just listing clubs on a site or storing details. Get out there - have someone travel to an area and invite the members of the surrounding clubs to a social at the back of a bar or at a community centre. Use the oppertunity to learn their problems and concerns whilst telling us what you're doing.

3. As part of getting out there, offer real training oppertunities outwith Bisley. Send folks out to offer training courses. Nothing complex, just offer weekend or evening training oppertunities in designated areas and invite the clubs to sign up.
You wouldn't believe the hassle one of my clubs had to go through in order to get someone from the NRA to conduct and RCO course. Demand far outstripped places available but we were eventually offered one intake only. The same request from the BDS resulted in not only an immediate offer of help but 2 consequative intakes. The sad part was that the NRA was actually the better of the two courses and the participants got more out of it, but the course seemed almost resented.
Offer 3-4 weekends for each area and clubs will bend over backwards to offer the ranges and classroom facilities. Don't forget that these are courses which you can charge for - money makers.
A few suggestions: reloading, RCOs, reading the wind, long range accuracy, muzzle loading, etc

Be proactive and get out amongst the clubs. Show an interest and perhaps we'll show an interest in you.

Marc

Intersting debate this is, agree with Scotsgun on his points.

1. Actively support any and all legal forms of shooting. Actively, visibly. If one form or another is under threat then show real visible and lasting support. I do not accept a representative of the NRA standing up at a meeting and explaining away the lack of support for fighting the pistol ban as its not their primary form of shooting.

How the NRA could possibly have that mentality is beyond belief...far removed from the real NRA in the US. Maybe they should do some courses with their US counterparts and see how it's done.

Charitable organisations work just like commercial ones, they do what is right for the board and them. They are just as ruthless and singleminded as any ordinary business.

CPSA is what it says on the box..Maybe NRA (UK) see it that way too...."RIFLE" Association.

Scotsgun wrote:Iain,

I think perhaps the points are becoming unclear due to the numbers bouncing back and forth?

To be clear, how the NRA could satisfy me:

1. Actively support any and all legal forms of shooting. Actively, visibly. If one form or another is under threat then show real visible and lasting support. I do not accept a representative of the NRA standing up at a meeting and explaining away the lack of support for fighting the pistol ban as its not their primary form of shooting.

2. Take an interest in the clubs. Something more than just listing clubs on a site or storing details. Get out there - have someone travel to an area and invite the members of the surrounding clubs to a social at the back of a bar or at a community centre. Use the oppertunity to learn their problems and concerns whilst telling us what you're doing.

3. As part of getting out there, offer real training oppertunities outwith Bisley. Send folks out to offer training courses. Nothing complex, just offer weekend or evening training oppertunities in designated areas and invite the clubs to sign up.
You wouldn't believe the hassle one of my clubs had to go through in order to get someone from the NRA to conduct and RCO course. Demand far outstripped places available but we were eventually offered one intake only. The same request from the BDS resulted in not only an immediate offer of help but 2 consequative intakes. The sad part was that the NRA was actually the better of the two courses and the participants got more out of it, but the course seemed almost resented.
Offer 3-4 weekends for each area and clubs will bend over backwards to offer the ranges and classroom facilities. Don't forget that these are courses which you can charge for - money makers.
A few suggestions: reloading, RCOs, reading the wind, long range accuracy, muzzle loading, etc

Be proactive and get out amongst the clubs. Show an interest and perhaps we'll show an interest in you.

Marc

Spot on Marc!

It's nothing complicated and could be set up very easily with minimum expenditure but would make a huge impact. Great civilian ranges available at Blair Atholl, Blairadam and up at Aberdeen.

Mike357 wrote: Great civilian ranges available at Blair Atholl, Blairadam and up at Aberdeen.

Yup, and not forgetting the commercial ones like Parton and the many MOD ranges open to us; Faslane, Castlelaw, etc

Scotsgun wrote:Iain,

I think perhaps the points are becoming unclear due to the numbers bouncing back and forth?

To be clear, how the NRA could satisfy me:

1. Actively support any and all legal forms of shooting. Actively, visibly. If one form or another is under threat then show real visible and lasting support. I do not accept a representative of the NRA standing up at a meeting and explaining away the lack of support for fighting the pistol ban as its not their primary form of shooting.

2. Take an interest in the clubs. Something more than just listing clubs on a site or storing details. Get out there - have someone travel to an area and invite the members of the surrounding clubs to a social at the back of a bar or at a community centre. Use the oppertunity to learn their problems and concerns whilst telling us what you're doing.

3. As part of getting out there, offer real training oppertunities outwith Bisley. Send folks out to offer training courses. Nothing complex, just offer weekend or evening training oppertunities in designated areas and invite the clubs to sign up.
You wouldn't believe the hassle one of my clubs had to go through in order to get someone from the NRA to conduct and RCO course. Demand far outstripped places available but we were eventually offered one intake only. The same request from the BDS resulted in not only an immediate offer of help but 2 consequative intakes. The sad part was that the NRA was actually the better of the two courses and the participants got more out of it, but the course seemed almost resented.
Offer 3-4 weekends for each area and clubs will bend over backwards to offer the ranges and classroom facilities. Don't forget that these are courses which you can charge for - money makers.
A few suggestions: reloading, RCOs, reading the wind, long range accuracy, muzzle loading, etc

Be proactive and get out amongst the clubs. Show an interest and perhaps we'll show an interest in you.

Marc

Hi Marc

Those are reasonable points.

The 1997 pistol ban was, I submit, different. The public outrage was (rightly) enormous. The politicians jumping on the resultant bandwaggon and pouring petrol on the fire deserve our memory - kick them at every opportunity you get - first two are Coe (who revolts me) and Bliar (who simply can't help it - don't they indulge in ragging w@nkers at Fettes?). It is literally true that the shooting governing bodies tried to put their point of view and were refused a voice by all the media in GB. The Telegraph was willing to carry paid advertising at full commercial rate. Everyone else - all the newspapers, all the radio stations, all the TV stations - would not touch us at any price. The slanders and libels were outrageous. Noboady should blame those running the sport for extreme caution. Ordinary shooters were receiving death threats - God knows what John de Havilland (NRA Chairman) got.

Thus I submit that the NRAs current claim to support shooting in all its legitimate forms should not be decried for that past incident. I make that current claim, both as XO Shooting Committee (unpaid) and as Firearms Liaison Officer (badly paid).

Take an interest in clubs. Yes. We are asked about twice a week to sort out some horrible internal argument in some club or other. I spend hours on the phone listening to club members and officials complaining about each other - I am not exaggerating - half an hour today, over an hour yesterday. I would love to engage in a positive discussion. My experience is that there are a lot of clubs out there who are in serious turmoil and don't have the wit to sort it themselves. The NRA has very little authority over affiliated clubs - I and others (Nick, Heather and Chris mainly) try to mediate but that's about all we can do. The firm doesn't have the money to pay for us to run up and down the country holding vaguely focussed discussions. That said, next time I'm in Aberdeen (at my own expense, to see my elderly parents), I will schedule in an NRA discussion for anyone who wants - who should I use to set it up?

Courses - as Karen said on this forum a day or two ago we will do them anywhere anytime if someone is willing to pay the bill. Some of the subjects you suggest we have several instructors and can meet any funded demand. Some, real expertise is hard to come by, but we will try. I'm saying this with my volunteer hat on - training is part of Shooting Committee's remit, and I have a co-opted Committee member specifically to take a view on training. How the professional side of training is going to pan out in the new structure I'm not sure - Phyllis is being made redundant and the new Head of Training and Membership has not yet been recruited. Specifically regarding RCO courses, we have a substantial group of RCO Assessors, so if you had a problem I'm sorry - with my volunteer hat on, tell me more and I will try to stop it happening again and get people out to meet the remaining demand.

I would love to get out amongst the clubs. I genuinely do not have the time right now, and I doubt whether the NRA has the money, to do the further reaches of the UK. But as I said, later in the year I will do Aberdeen on my own expense, and if any group within reach of a station on the East Coast main line wants me to stop for a few hours or overnight, I will be happy to. Please allow me time to take the GB Target Rifle Team to South Africa (leaving in two weeks on Saturday) and to get my full-time job as NRA Firearms Manager sorted (I start on 3 April, the day I get back from SA). Later this year, I will.

yours

Iain

Iain,

Thankyou for the prompt responce and the offers. A few suggestions/comments:

IainWR wrote: The 1997 pistol ban was, I submit, different.

OK, so we'll agree to move on from this point provided you accept that there are still many pistol shooters out there who hold a grievance with the NRA. That and the fact that all forms of shooting is under threat and any visible unity between the various supporting organisations is a good thing.

IainWR wrote: Take an interest in clubs. Yes. We are asked about twice a week to sort out some horrible internal argument in some club or other. I spend hours on the phone listening to club members and officials complaining about each other - I am not exaggerating - half an hour today, over an hour yesterday. I would love to engage in a positive discussion. My experience is that there are a lot of clubs out there who are in serious turmoil and don't have the wit to sort it themselves. The NRA has very little authority over affiliated clubs - I and others (Nick, Heather and Chris mainly) try to mediate but that's about all we can do.....

Not really sure what to say here. By asking for more involvement with the clubs i meant purely a visible face who could interact with the clubs, find out what they're unique concerns are and distribute information concerning other clubs and activities. It would not be my wish for the NRA to serve as a controlling authority - far from it.

IainWR wrote: That said, next time I'm in Aberdeen (at my own expense, to see my elderly parents), I will schedule in an NRA discussion for anyone who wants - who should I use to set it up?

An offer to which you should be commended. Suggestion - how about contacting the clubs surrounding your parents and suggesting a social meet at a pub or at one of their clubhouses? A great ice breaker would be offering a short presentation detailing the GB Target Rifle Team's trip to South Africa and the resulting match.

Any further suggestions or comments from shooters in the Aberdeen area?

IainWR wrote: Courses - as Karen said on this forum a day or two ago we will do them anywhere anytime if someone is willing to pay the bill...... How the professional side of training is going to pan out in the new structure I'm not sure ......

Suggestions - create a system such as that currently opperated by the BDS and BASC:
1. Canvass the clubs to find out what they want. Suggest perhaps 10 different courses and leave space on the form for further suggestions. You could use the same form to request when they would want the courses.
2. Depending upon return, offer courses to areas, e.g. North East England, North West England, Borders, Central Scotland, etc. I'd imagine some of the larger clubs would offer their facilities in order to reduce the course fees for their own members.
3. List the courses on your website and distribute flyers amongst interested clubs/parties.

IainWR wrote: Specifically regarding RCO courses, we have a substantial group of RCO Assessors, so if you had a problem I'm sorry - with my volunteer hat on, tell me more and I will try to stop it happening again and get people out to meet the remaining demand.

Its history now but essentially we had to go to great lengths to get a trainer from the NRA whereas Dave Goffin of the BDS saw it as an oppertunity and bent over backwards.

Thinking of oppertunities. Both BASC and the BDS have regular branch meetings and shoots which require RCOs. However due to limited resources the only ranges on offer are usually the open type. Have you considered offering them your resources? I believe you have running deer/boar at Bisley. Have you any idea how many stalkers in the UK want to shoot boar, specifically running boar (a practice supported in Europe but not here) and would seek training from an expert if they could? Advertise such courses in magazines bought by stalkers such as Sporting Rifle and just watch the resulting interest.

You mentioned your involvement in the GB Target Rifle Team. There must be a million things i could learn from you including long range accuracy, reading the wind, tuning ammo, etc. I'd certainly pay money and travel a moderate distance to hear you speak and possible shoot.

Break down the barriers by offering the training and the clubs will readily invite you to their clubs.

Just my 2p worth; not a manifesto.

Marc