The old chestnut of firearms for self defence - a question..

[bradaz11]

they do not want to redeem themselves

[Dark Skies]

The fault with the initial post is that it is perhaps asking the wrong people. Or rather the wrong age group.
Statistically it is the younger generation in their twenties that are most likely to be confronted with violent situations. They tend to place themselves in scenarios where things can get heated. Drink is often involved, impairing their judgement, they tend to be out on the streets late at night, often frequenting areas where the prudent would not go. They are also likely to be confronted by a young aggressor.

As an older guy I'm safely tucked up in my garage / indoors after nightfall. If I want a drink I'll nurse one from a bottle of rum in my own home. I mix with similar people in 'nice' areas and situations. I don't place myself in situations where things are likely to go South.

In my twenties though ... I got myself into all sorts of stupid situations - often simply just because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I had a knife pulled on me twice and someone once tried to shove a broken bottle in my face. Because of the prerequisites set in the initial post I guess they don't count. I do know of two friends who were mugged at knife point though - in broad daylight in Cowley, Oxford.

[joe]

my GF works in a kids home, basically little s*** that aren't bad enough for prison, but have done things that means the parents don't want them around themselves anymore. social service ping pong balls... anyway, the other night, the 3 kids that are in their house decided to go out, due to shortcomings of some of the staff and the fact the home doesn't have an alarm at present, they snuck out.
they went to a local woman's house that one of them knew, they then proceeded to attempt to break in, the woman heard and investigated, they hid, she looked around, then lights off again, they then got the door open, but disturbed her again. she shut the door and went back in again. they then got in the house on third attempt, she confronted 2 of them as the 3rd (who was the one that knew her was hiding outside) they pretended they'd been chased and she went to call the police. leaving them alone, they then took her purse and car keys, and stole her car. they were caught halfway up the m1 at around 1am in her ford focus, after a chase and subsequent crash.
these kids are between 10 and 14....
my GF was in their police interviews, apparently the original plan was to break in and attack the woman (in her 50's, who lives alone) and judging by some of their past history, I would fully suspect sexual assault. It was only because she was then awake that this didn't happen. and the one kid who knew her, was even quoted by both kids as asking them why they didnt just beat the s*** out of her when they got inside, rather than the story of being chased.
I'll say again, between 10 and 14.
are you going to expect if 3 little kids run up to you and ask for help that they will then attack you? and I know it sounds daft, could you defend yourself against 3 of them if they did try?

this is the youth of today, and the sort of 'kids' our police have to deal with. law abiding people live in fear of the law, the ones who break it realise there are no consequences and so do as they please

thank f*ck they didn't get shot and might get a chance to redeem themselves.

Would you be saying that if they had beaten / stabbed her to death ?

[Blackstuff]

3 big problems in "active shooter" or terrorist attacks.

1 - You see a man walking down the street towards you with his AK at the low patrol position. Is he another "trained fac holder" or is he a bad guy. Have you got safe backstop ? Have you time to shout a challenge ? What is the challenge ? Maybe the other guy thinks YOU are the bad guy and will refuse to drop his weapon ? If he is a bad guy, he wont give a fcuk about backstop etc and will probably beat you to the draw as a result. What justification have you got to shoot someone who is apparently posing little threat that will save you in court? Further, I would suggest that 'active' shooters spend a good portion of their time shooting (people) rather than just strutting about. Unless you're running around like an 80's action hero TOWARDS the shooting I doubt there'd be many circumstances where you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone killing people and someone protecting themselves/others. If I was armed in such a situation, I wouldn't be 'patrolling' in the middle of the street either, if I had to move I'd be hugging cover, moving cautiously and you'd see my eyes before the gun and for the main part I'd be moving away from the shooter(s) as quickly as possible.

2 - There is an increasing trend for terrorists to dress in tacticool gear ( Dublin recently they even had NATO helmets ) or impersonate Police. One more thing to delay your thought process when you challenge a "bad guy" - is he actually Police or an imposter ? Shall I shoot or challenge. If I challenge he might shoot me first. And all the while you are thinking of this ( and the backstop issue ) a real bad guy has already sent a burst in your direction.Again, why would you be standing in the middle of the street waiting for it? You'd be running for cover and if possible watching the area. The police/military don't go out on their own, would be moving purposefully and shouting challenges to anyone emerging in front of them. The bad guys would just be shooting unarmed people.

3 - Police responding to an active shooter - they will be looking for an individual with a gun. When they meet you, you will be treated as a suspect. An armed suspect. Maybe you will drop your weapon. Maybe you will be alarmed when challenged and make a sudden movement ?The police will be in a group or at least a pair and will almost certainly (in this country), speak with an native accent and be a white male in their 30's-40's. If a 35 white bloke and his mate tell you to drop your gun in a local accent, its probably a good idea to do it!

[Blackstuff]

Being armed for your defence is a British Common Law right going back thousands of years. It only became outlawed, some would opine illegally, in 1953. That is within living memory for a fair chunk of UK nationals! Legislation was railroaded through by the Conservative government of the day who renaged on all sorts of concessions that should have been included or omitted. The 1953 Prevention of Crime Act was a nasty piece of treachery....

Jeff Cooper wrote, "Owning a gun makes you no more armed, than owning a guitar makes you a musician" and Sir Winston Churchill said, "Every British household should be compelled to have good insurance and a sturdy revolver."....

Slightly ironic, remind me, who was the Prime Minister in 1953 when the treacherous act was past?

[Chuck]

I'm going to out myself here. I'm a copper. I work in a major UK City, I carry a pathetic baton that would probably collapse the moment I tried to hit someone with it, and a spray that does me more harm than the threat. I deal with violent people on a weekly, but mostly daily basis.

I do not feel the need to carry a firearm. I'm at risk. I don't want one, I don't need one.

I really enjoy shooting, and find firearms interesting, but do I need one for self defence? Absolutely not.

No offence, but it's not about YOU is it? It's about the people, the defencbeless masses who, unlike you cannot call on their buddies to show up armed to the teeth. Yes they can call on you but how long does that take?? You arrive at 90mph, a 9mm does it at what 1200 FPS???? Which is faster.

Y'see criminals in the main are not so dumb as to attack the police are they? They also tend to try and commit crimes when you are not around. When was the last time a WPC was attacked and raped??? You will be more aware of threats than the average Joe or Jill, that's what you're trained for is it not....to look out for bad guys and girls?? Thing is, you (the police) cannot be everywhere can you? If that were possible the Paris and Tunisian massacres would not have happened.

The issue is not if "YOU" personally want a gun, the choice is yours and well done to you if you don't want one..there's a LOT of issues involved the minute you carry a firearm for defence! Certainly a lot more than is taken into account in discussions like this.

As I said there is MUCH more to it than just having a gun, it requires training, mindset and it IS a tool of last resort, always!

BTW: It's not about this "NEEDING" one for self defence or sport is it??? Whether it's defene or sport "need" should never come into this! Yes there other options ------ but what if there aren't? Once again, it's just like insurance...or a very loud personal alarm.

If it saves ONE life it's worth it.

[breacher]

The fault with the initial post is that it is perhaps asking the wrong people. Or rather the wrong age group.
Statistically it is the younger generation in their twenties that are most likely to be confronted with violent situations. They tend to place themselves in scenarios where things can get heated. Drink is often involved, impairing their judgement, they tend to be out on the streets late at night, often frequenting areas where the prudent would not go. They are also likely to be confronted by a young aggressor.

As an older guy I'm safely tucked up in my garage / indoors after nightfall. If I want a drink I'll nurse one from a bottle of rum in my own home. I mix with similar people in 'nice' areas and situations. I don't place myself in situations where things are likely to go South.

In my twenties though ... I got myself into all sorts of stupid situations - often simply just because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I had a knife pulled on me twice and someone once tried to shove a broken bottle in my face. Because of the prerequisites set in the initial post I guess they don't count. I do know of two friends who were mugged at knife point though - in broad daylight in Cowley, Oxford.

You raise an interesting point.

Alcohol.

As it stands, its an offence to be drunk in charge of a firearm.

So, if self-defence weapons were allowed, what do you do when popping out for a drink ? If a couple of drinks is considered by the law as enough to impair your driving so much that its unsafe to drive and deemed an offence, surely you could not be entrusted to possess a firearm in public after the same 2 drinks ?

So, for said youngsters, when most at risk on a Saturday night amongst drunken hooligans, they could not carry anyway ?

[Blackstuff]

In my CCW 'utopia' there would be an alcohol limit, either the same as the drink driving limit or lower. It would also be an offence to take a firearm into an establishment that primarily sells alcohol (for consumption there). Metal detectors and armed door/bar staff would enforce it for the people who like to ignore the rules anyway. An entire industry could be created for armed 'guardians' (not police) in places where firearms would not be permitted. Might be a good place for all the armed forces to get employment once they're thrown on the 'scrap heap'.

I would also put an age limit of at least 21, if not 25, unless the person could complete whatever training/assessment which could be conjured up which could determine their level of maturity/responsibility.

[Gazoo]

In my CCW 'utopia' there would be an alcohol limit, either the same as the drink driving limit or lower. It would also be an offence to take a firearm into an establishment that primarily sells alcohol (for consumption there). Metal detectors and armed door/bar staff would enforce it for the people who like to ignore the rules anyway. An entire industry could be created for armed 'guardians' (not police) in places where firearms would not be permitted. Might be a good place for all the armed forces to get employment once they're thrown on the 'scrap heap'.

I would also put an age limit of at least 21, if not 25, unless the person could complete whatever training/assessment which could be conjured up which could determine their level of maturity/responsibility.

So the people at the cafe's and concert in Paris still would have been unarmed as they are drinking establishments, and armed guardians (Roel Moat springs to mind)

[Blackstuff]

Concert yes, cafes no. By 'drinking establishments' I meant alcohol - pubs, bars and nightclubs i.e. where people go to get p!$$ed.

Lol, one nutter bouncer out of how many. Weak sauce. Why do people who are against CCW have the notion that the people for it mean they want to put a gun immediately into everyones hand tomorrow?! Perhaps another thread could be started which would outline the requirements/restrictions people in favour of CCW would implement?

Besides, I certainly wouldn't be putting a gun in the hands of bouncers that I know of. These would be people actually trained in the use of firearms and not roid heads with bully complexes (Apologies to any door men on here that don't fit that description!)