breacher wrote:Quote:
As I said, the Hague Convention and The Deer Act are based on lethality and stopping power.
Are both not based on the effects of rifle ammo a whole different ball game, i know it includes handgun ammo. PS I don't think anyone said that expanding ammo was not more effective than FMJ, mostly because expanding increases its caliber. Nothing to do with energy dump transfer etc.
Not quite.
FMJ penetrates with minimal transfer of energy.
Soft point / expanding dumps its energy because its expansion inhibits the penetration. Nothing to do with calibre getting bigger. However, if it does not dump ALL its energy and does pass through, its exit would will be larger and beneficial to lethality.
Fact is, given the same calibre, same velocity and hitting non vital organs, expanding ammo is more lethal than FMJ and therefore can be said to have more "stopping power"
Stopping power is a measurement of lethality.
Ok then say 9mm fmj makes 9mm hole through and through an expanding 9mm makes say 10.5mm hole and stops prob making it more lethal then the fmj however what if then say a .44spl lead semi wadcutter making a 10.9 mm hole through and through wouldn't this round be more lethal then the 9mm hollow point ? As its made th same size wound but it has gone through so there are two hole to leak blood from
What Brian is saying is simply with all other things being equal a HP will perform better than an FMJ. That hypothesis is borne out through data. When comparing calibers the diameter cannot be relied upon solely. Secondary wound channels and the transferance of hydrostatic shock through soft tissue play just as big a part in "stopping power" as does the primary wound channel.
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?
Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
Sim G wrote:What Brian is saying is simply with all other things being equal a HP will perform better than an FMJ. That hypothesis is borne out through data. When comparing calibers the diameter cannot be relied upon solely. Secondary wound channels and the transferance of hydrostatic shock through soft tissue play just as big a part in "stopping power" as does the primary wound channel.
Some may remember what the Mujahideen in Soviet Afghanistan called the "Poison Bullet"......the 5.45x39 round.It would often pass through the body and the "target" would survive, only to die days later from internal bleeding whereae those hit by the 7.62x39 or 54r rounds tended to die there and then.The way I read it is that with a bigger round you get a greater hydrostatic shock effect, according to Russian evaluations of some Russian 54r rounds a round to the chest at xxxm creates a big enough hydrostatic shock effect that it will cause blood vessels in the brain etc to burst.If you look at the way ballistics gel opens up and ripples as a bullet passes through it in slow motion that is the hydrostatic shock effect at work and for a fraction of a second will create a dirty big hole that to a certain extent closes behind the bullet as it travels forward.
I can remember seeing a video on YouTube where a shooter in the States was hitting a frozen turkey wrapped in a layer of denim at 300m with a .22lr and they were going straight through it.Sure I heard that a .22lr hitting the human body can, for want of a better description, hit bone and ricochet round inside and end up anywhere rather than creating a fairly straight wound tract like a bigger higher velocity FMJ round would.
"The only real power comes out of a long rifle." - Joseph Stalin
Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank.....give a man a bank and he can rob the world!.
Sim G wrote:What Brian is saying is simply with all other things being equal a HP will perform better than an FMJ. That hypothesis is borne out through data. When comparing calibers the diameter cannot be relied upon solely. Secondary wound channels and the transferance of hydrostatic shock through soft tissue play just as big a part in "stopping power" as does the primary wound channel.
Sim G wrote:What Brian is saying is simply with all other things being equal a HP will perform better than an FMJ. That hypothesis is borne out through data. When comparing calibers the diameter cannot be relied upon solely. Secondary wound channels and the transferance of hydrostatic shock through soft tissue play just as big a part in "stopping power" as does the primary wound channel.
If that's what he is saying he is wrong, the only advantage a expanding round gives in ( Handgun ammo) is increased diameter, eg bigger hole.
the total permanent cavity is realized. Due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement.
The temporary cavity is caused by tissue being stretched away from the permanent cavity. If the temporary cavity is produced rapidly enough in elastic tissues, the tensile strength of the tissue can be exceeded resulting in tearing of the tissue. This effect is seen with very high velocity projectiles such as in rifle calibers, but is not seen with handgun calibers. For the temporary cavity of most handgun projectiles to have an effect on wounding, the velocity of the projectile needs to exceed roughly 2,000 fps
Marshall and Sanows data and findings indicate that it does. The generalisations of the FBIs "justification notice", does exactly that, generalises. Specific science in the excerpt you've copied, when sated, does so from 1958 to 1989. Methodology, testing ability and bullet technology has come on quantum leaps since then.
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?
Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
The generalisations of the FBIs "justification notice", does exactly that, generalises. Specific science in the excerpt you've copied, when sated, does so from 1958 to 1989. Methodology, testing ability and bullet technology has come on quantum leaps since then.
Some of it is the latest dita looking at modern handgun ammo, that is why the FBI is moving back to 9MM ammo. Testing and bullet technology have moved on, but that doesn't change the fact that all most commonly used handgun ammo does is make a hole the diameter of the bullet. Handgun ammo is moving to slow for their to be any other of the effects posted. The energy dump and other supposed effects are just commonly held myths.
The generalisations of the FBIs "justification notice", does exactly that, generalises. Specific science in the excerpt you've copied, when sated, does so from 1958 to 1989. Methodology, testing ability and bullet technology has come on quantum leaps since then.
Some of it is the latest dita looking at modern handgun ammo, that is why the FBI is moving back to 9MM ammo. Testing and bullet technology have moved on, but that doesn't change the fact that all most commonly used handgun ammo does is make a hole the diameter of the bullet. Handgun ammo is moving to slow for their to be any other of the effects posted. The energy dump and other supposed effects are just commonly held myths.
Surely basic science would indicate that if a bullet passes through the body, it has retained some of the energy it started out with. And if a bullet penetrates halfway and comes to a stop it has transferred all its energy to the body ?
The generalisations of the FBIs "justification notice", does exactly that, generalises. Specific science in the excerpt you've copied, when sated, does so from 1958 to 1989. Methodology, testing ability and bullet technology has come on quantum leaps since then.
Some of it is the latest dita looking at modern handgun ammo, that is why the FBI is moving back to 9MM ammo. Testing and bullet technology have moved on, but that doesn't change the fact that all most commonly used handgun ammo does is make a hole the diameter of the bullet. Handgun ammo is moving to slow for their to be any other of the effects posted. The energy dump and other supposed effects are just commonly held myths.
Surely basic science would indicate that if a bullet passes through the body, it has retained some of the energy it started out with. And if a bullet penetrates halfway and comes to a stop it has transferred all its energy to the body ?
The logic behind the Glaser Safety Slug & quite a few other designs....Black Talon, etc.
