Steve E wrote:As far as I am aware there is not a single accredited reloading course available in the UK. There are no standards that have to be adhered to only the perceived best practice of those that are running them.
The Club/Association that I am a member/instructor of is possibly going to be ISO 9000 accredited for its reloading courses. It will probably be the only one in the UK.
There are lots of people out there teaching reloading, the vast majority I suspect are doing based on their own trial and error principles and probably carry no insurance for their instruction/courses.
The association that I belong to is well covered by insurance to cover reloading courses.
Being ISO 9000 accredited does not mean that your clubs reloading course is any better than anyone else's.
What I don't want to see is a NGB introduce a course or qualification that becomes mandatory when there is very little corporate knowledge or expertise available in that organisation or nationally within the UK. Problem is reloading is for the most part a hobby, there is no 'National Reloading Association' and if the NRA are forced to introduce a qualification or course due to the concerns of the MoD in order to allow reloaded ammunition to be used on MoD ranges they have to be very careful about how they approach it.
The survey is flawed in many respects and in the hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition I have shot or supervised being shot over the last 35 years most ammunition incidents have been with 'factory' military or commercially produced products.
Chuck wrote:Surely the BASC basic course should suffice?
I wrote it and it will suffice BUT ...it only covers the very straightforward basics and I prefer to deliver courses that go 'deeper' to make sure that the student has the capability to make truly competition standard ammo if they want to put that extra bit if effort in.
I've been averaging 2-3 thousand rounds of reloaded ammunition for the last 40 years---plus muzzle-loading, which, by the way is a form of reloading. Apart from .22 rimfire and a couple of hundred 9mm rounds, I have never used---certainly never purchased---any factory ammunition. I load a variey of calibres, only one of which is commercially available and have never had any probems at all. BUT: I have seen two revolvers and one rifle blown up through incorrect loading procedure. Some form of instruction is useful, but how do you prevent problems due to slip-ups by experienced people?
As for ISO 9000, I was involved in its introduction in a motor industry factory. Quality plummetted---procedures were followed, but no operators felt personally responsible---ISO 9000 had superceeded pride in workmanship.
Fred
That's the rub...everyone can screw-up no matter how experienced or well trained...we are human.
The screw-ups get pounced upon and the many thousands of safe rounds / activities are overlooked by those wishing to criticise.
In decades of shooting I have only ever once actually seen an ammo-related accident caused by someone .....so the stats (if gathered or reviewed independently) would suggest a 1 in a million chance of problems..........surely EVERY activity carries risks so there must be some sane level of inherent risk that is accepted every time we get out of bed.......or shall we stay there all day to be safe!
20-odd years ago, the MoD got exercised over civilians shooting non-NATO STANAG spec ammo on its ranges, and an instruction went out to all rifle clubs via the NRA that people had to either 1) carry a copy of the carton or manufacturers' spec sheet of factory ammo, or if using handloads 2) prepare and be able to produce on request a declaration consisting of a [supplied] form of words which said that [to paraphrase] one's handloaded ammunition was loaded with an XXXgn bullet to an estimated YYY fps and produced an estimated ZZZ ft/lb ME and had been prepared safely in accordance with loads data from the [to be specified] reloading manual.
Long before the 4,500J HME issue arose, the concern was about ammunition that might exceed the then current MV (3,275 fps?) and ME (some huge value at that time in excess of 5,000 ft/lb) limits.
A number of us carried these declarations around for a few years, but I never heard of anyone ever being asked to produce it, although I imagine if an ammunition related incident had occurred, they might. So far as I know, this requirement has never been rescinded, simply never enforced and has been forgotten as such things often are.
I presume that Mercer/the NRA have seen this thread and are aware of both the overwhelming concern with the quality of the survey and its intended purpose but yet they haven't made any attempt to address either ? Is that the height of arrogance or incompetence ?
If they haven't seen it then are they worryingly out of touch with their members or do we hold this forum in too high a regard ?
Neither situation is great but I for one would like to see some attempt at clarification on their behalf. I don't think that is asking for anything unreasonable is it ? If they are on the side of the reloader as they claim and don't intend to introduce some form of mandatory course or increased cost on the already stretched shooter then log on and tell us.
Being ISO 9000 accredited does not mean that your clubs reloading course is any better than anyone else's.
Watch this ISO thing..it means ONLY that the course is presented correctly. The content can be crud but as long as it is written and presented OK then it can get ISO whatever - That's straight from the ISO people! Amazing eh!
Dave T - question, why not go deeper then, maybe get your course accredited? Or is it that people will not spend a few quid to PROVE their competence in reloading??.
I see the point made though that millions of rounds go bang no problem but ONE mishap and the panties get soiled...impossibleto have 100% safety!
Political Correctness is the language of lies, written by the corrupt , spoken by the inept!
Being ISO 9000 accredited does not mean that your clubs reloading course is any better than anyone else's.
Watch this ISO thing..it means ONLY that the course is presented correctly. The content can be crud but as long as it is written and presented OK then it can get ISO whatever - That's straight from the ISO people! Amazing eh!
Dave T - question, why not go deeper then, maybe get your course accredited? Or is it that people will not spend a few quid to PROVE their competence in reloading??.
I see the point made though that millions of rounds go bang no problem but ONE mishap and the panties get soiled...impossibleto have 100% safety!
Chuck....I want to stress that I have never been in favour of compulsory training but do think that new reloaders would benefit from a proper course (1 day) rather than go off half-cocked and potentially dangerous......a lucky few have a really knowledgable mate who can guide them but many don't.
Trouble is that BASC don't want to deliver an in-depth course (hence its limited scope) and I have had very limited interest / take-up for my own more detailed version which I consider will turn-out a competent reloader at the end of the days tuition....I offer full backup via phone / email to be sure no accidents arise!
Shooters seem adverse to spending anything on this subject.
You need a formal, third party recognition of competence.
Who's going to grant that?
CIP? SAAMI? UK Proof Houses? Or perhaps a handloading course accredited by a leading ammunition and component manufacturer?
CIP accreditation almost begins to sound quite reasonable although the very idea of some form of certification is ungovernable.
The NRA does not create and publish industry standards related to firearms, ammunition and components. Nor do they have the technical expertise to set standards for competent handloading.
Let's be honest about it a mediocre survey was beyond the collective talents of the NRA.
Any ideas on a third party to evaluate and recognise the NRA's competence?
No clarity, no sound judgement, utterly illogical, totally deprived of reason. Typical NRA self-justifying absurdity.
i remember seeing a program on US marine snipers, showing their training etc, and one of the things they showed was snipers reloading / producing their own unique ammunition for their own rifles.
does anyone know if the MOD let any of their units reload / produce their own ammo? as if the perceived direction of this is to appease the MOD, then its them that need to be satisfied, not us (if there is even an issue), and if they train their units to reload, wouldnt the easiest way be to use their course?
When guns are outlawed, only Outlaws will have guns
