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That video was really helpful and it sells the Targetmaster Trickler, it looks perfectly accurate. I'm impressed.

Agreed, but it lets you measure those 5 kernel grains and if you're looking to recreate the perfect shot, accuracy is everything. I appreciate if you have his TV/camera setup you can see the effect of each grain on the balance, but I doubt my eyes will be able to focus on the balance to that degree, especially in artificial light. Hence leaning towards an LCD screen. Point taken about reliability though!

I suppose the ultimate question is, if you loaded 5 shots of .308 with 42.1 grains and then another 5 shots with 42.18 grains, would the moa differ between groups? The general consensus seems to be no, but it's hard to comprehend it doesn't have any effect even if it's just 1mm @ 100 yards. At 1000 yards that then starts to make a difference. My brains telling me if I should be as accurate as the propellant allows.

1066 wrote:Many beam scales will weigh well within .1 of a grain. There are just about five single kernels of Varget to .1 grain so having a digital scale that can weigh to .001 grain is pretty academic unless you are intending to start cutting individual kernels.

No matter what you pay for digital scales they will eventually let you down. I have an old but reliable Ohaus lab scale that, when new, were an expensive item. The LCD readout is now starting to break up, Ohaus say they are obsolete and there are no spares available but are happy to give me $200 off a new $3,000 scale. I have beam scales that are 50 years old and as accurate as the day they were made.

This is one of my scales in action, a humble, bottom of the range RCBS 502.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnVOoGd1bDU

Halodin no offence but you need to slow down. You need to stop trying to buy your way into accurate ammunition that will not work. You need to listen to what people are telling you expensive equipment will not make you a good reloader. You need to get the basics right you need to get hold of some VERY basic kit and re load. Read a good manual and re load then re load then re load. Only then will you know what kit you need to buy.

Listen very carefully to 1066 he knows what he is talking about when it comes to scales. The target master is the best value for money on the planet and you do not need a LCD screen any lap top will do. In fact you don't need a lap top at all I use a target master for all my precision re loads I don't all ways use the camera with a lap top it works fine as a stand alone unit.

Listen to Adam he knows what he is talking about. Slow down stop throwing money at it.

No offence taken. Don't worry I'm not rushing to buy, I'm just rushing to understand. I'm an analyst by trade, so I like detail, I have to understand how things work and I especially like to know limitations. It helps me build a framework to add information to later. I do hope no one has taken offence at anything I've said, if I question anything, it's only because I like more detail, not because I doubt anyone's experience or quality of judgement. Full respect is due to everyone who has helped me.

Nevertheless, I can't buy all the ammo components until my variation comes back, so it gives me some time to talk about it and just make sure I fully understand the process. I wouldn't say I'm trying to buy my way to accurate reloading, but I really don't want to replace something later down the line, if for the sake of asking the right questions early on, I could buy right the first time. It's just a pet hate.

I can see now that the TargetMaster Trickler, a good beam scale and a little camera hooked up to my computer is absolutely the way to go. Excuse the pun, but it's bullet proof and gives me the granularity I can experiment with later down the line. In the picture below, what are the units of each of those lines on the laptop screen? 1/10th grain?

Alpha1 wrote:Halodin no offence but you need to slow down. You need to stop trying to buy your way into accurate ammunition that will not work. You need to listen to what people are telling you expensive equipment will not make you a good reloader. You need to get the basics right you need to get hold of some VERY basic kit and re load. Read a good manual and re load then re load then re load. Only then will you know what kit you need to buy.

Listen very carefully to 1066 he is knows what he is talking about when it comes to scales. The target master is the best value for money on the planet and you do not need a LCD screen any lap top will do.

Listen to Adam he knows what he is talking about. Slow down stop throwing money at it.

HALODIN wrote:
I can see now that the TargetMaster Trickler, a good beam scale and a little camera hooked up to my computer is absolutely the way to go. Excuse the pun, but it's bullet proof and gives me the granularity I can experiment with later down the line. In the picture below, what are the units of each of those lines on the laptop screen? 1/10th grain?



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The scale shown in the picture is a Lyman M5, dating, at a guess from around the 1970's, made by Ohaus and one of the forerunners of the current 10/10. I consider the M5, along with the RCBS 304 to be the finest reloading scales ever made although neither have been made for many years.

The graduation on the scale are indeed 10th grains. Early 10/10's and 5-10's also had this feature but as manufacturing corners were cut this feature has been dropped and the current scales just have a single zero line.

The Targetmaster shown in the picture is around six years old.

This is an early 5-10 with graduated scale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVtYglAd9Dc

HALODIN wrote:No offence taken. Don't worry I'm not rushing to buy, I'm just rushing to understand. I'm an analyst by trade, so I like detail, I have to understand how things work and I especially like to know limitations. It helps me build a framework to add information to later. I do hope no one has taken offence at anything I've said, if I question anything, it's only because I like more detail, not because I doubt anyone's experience or quality of judgement. Full respect is due to everyone who has helped me.

Nevertheless, I can't buy all the ammo components until my variation comes back, so it gives me some time to talk about it and just make sure I fully understand the process. I wouldn't say I'm trying to buy my way to accurate reloading, but I really don't want to replace something later down the line, if for the sake of asking the right questions early on, I could buy right the first time. It's just a pet hate.

I can see now that the TargetMaster Trickler, a good beam scale and a little camera hooked up to my computer is absolutely the way to go. Excuse the pun, but it's bullet proof and gives me the granularity I can experiment with later down the line. In the picture below, what are the units of each of those lines on the laptop screen? 1/10th grain?

The main determinant of accuracy is the jump before the bullet ogive engages with the rifling. The powder charge just determines how far the bullet will travel before it goes subsonic. I helped a mate test some homeloads on Short Siberia at 100 yards. 12 rounds, same load but with different COL representing a 0.02" or so range in 0.005" increments in groups of three. For a given load and bullet weight, he was able to determine the best COL. So my advice would be continue taking advice but also save money on a lab-level electronic scale, get a good beam scale and a Hornady or similar collimator.

Another plug for the Targetmaster from me, however, as has already been stated you need a good beam scale to use it with. I have a RCBS 10-10 that was sent to Scott Parker in the USA for a service and accurising. The scale served me well for quite a few years before I got a Targetmaster. It worked well with the Targetmaster but I was looking to try and improve it further. Allan helped out with another service and the addition of a webcam clamp and more importantly an extended pointer on the end of the beam that allowed even greater visual resolution and clarity as to where the beam actually was. The charges weighed on these scales are regularly checked on a Denver Instruments MXX-123 digital scale (left powered up 24/356), the charges are consistently within 0.04 of a grain, that is generally to within 1 or 2 kernels of extruded powder.

The Targetmaster is a powder trickler, the key is having a good repeatable beam scale to combine it with. The actual weight of the charge is of less importance than repeatability, if the beam scale reads 24.1 grains when the true weight is 24.38 grains who cares as long as each time it reads 24.1 it is actually consistently 24.38. Determining the actual charge weight with the real world accuracy of reloading scales is why you should always start load development at a margin below the maximum quoted charges to allow for scale inaccuracy.

I would have no hesitation in recommending Allan’s beam scale servicing, pointer and webcam clamp modifications.

Dombo63 wrote:and a Hornady or similar collimator.

Perhaps you mean a comparitor?

..

rox wrote:

Dombo63 wrote:and a Hornady or similar collimator.

Perhaps you mean a comparitor?

..

Yes, apologies. Collimator is for narrowing a beam of particles. So useful for a phased Plasma rifle, in the 40 watt range. Less so for my No 4.

Dombo63 wrote:

rox wrote:

Dombo63 wrote:and a Hornady or similar collimator.

Perhaps you mean a comparitor?

..

Yes, apologies. Collimator is for narrowing a beam of particles. So useful for a phased Plasma rifle, in the 40 watt range. Less so for my No 4.

I'd say that accuracy is a result of multiple components repeatedly coming together the same way. From basic case prep, powder weight, seating depth up to position, hold and release.

My Steyr prefers a COL slightly above the Saami spec at 2.875" having found this "sweet spot" adjusting the powder charge weight tightened the grouping further so a combination of seating depth, powder weight, consistent case prep and assembly will narrow the margins which affect your resulting accuracy. In the case of my Steyr it reduced a 1.5moa group to .5moa, the only limiting factor being my ability to consistently shoot the same way.

If I was starting to reload now I wouldn't start with basic kit as eventually you will grow out of it (sometimes very quickly). The Target Master, a decent set of scales and even a cheap cast press (like the Lee Cast Breechlock) are more then capable of producing very high quality ammunition, they aren't that expensive compared to a basic level kit and are not difficult to use even for a beginner.


Halodin, please ask as many questions as you wish, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask You'll get a lot of valuable information here from some very experienced shooters and we're all very friendly :shakeshout: