The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

If you were a soldier or cop or armed security and had to ditch and switch your carbine for your side arm in an encounter you would be wishing differently. Why give yourself one more thing to do in a life or death situation. Every 1/10th of a second counts and a lot of dead people have been found with safeties ON

The problem is that human beings are careless and negligent. As you know a firearm won't go of by itself but people make mistakes a safety is a back up remember you don't have to switch it on if you don't want to. When in combat you can have it switched off when in camp eating your dinner you could switch it on it gives you a choice. You say plenty have being found dead with the safety catch on, but I would say over the years the fact that a firearm had a safety catch and it was on has saved thousands of lives. You are a more trusting person than me I know plenty that I wouldn't want near me with a firearm and a round in the chamber. Never mind one with no safety.

I think that in the scenario where you dump your jammed / destroyed rifle and use a pistol is one where the Glock is ideal !

As to safeties - pointless discussion really.

Any firearm ( regardless of design or what safety is fitted ) will only discharge the trigger is pulled on a firearm already made ready.

There is a reason for the "N" in ND - the operator is at fault - not the firearm.

breacher wrote:Any firearm ( regardless of design or what safety is fitted ) will only discharge the trigger is pulled on a firearm already made ready.

There is a reason for the "N" in ND - the operator is at fault - not the firearm.

Not so. I know of an incident where a fella was running up the back stair case of RUC Castlereagh when the S&W 59 he was carrying, made ready, with the safety on, came out of it's holster and hit the stair muzzle down. It fired....

Also, those "against" such devices, read some of Ayoob's files in regards to how a safety aids weapon retention and his recommendations.

Ayoob is a very good guy and his words hold beaucoup water.

Sim, I think that's a different argument though. A falling gun is a falling gun, officer should look to it configuration as something was amiss with the holster. Not usual for a falling gun to fire by all accounts. A bit like the failure of a safety on a 1911 cocked and locked - it is apparently a rarity

Weapon retention is a different discussion applying mainly to cops and military not those carrying concealed.. gun should never be drawn to reinforce an argument or prove a point unless you are going to fire it. Cops seem to lose more guns to criminals in a grapple because that's the way it just works. Bottom line is still "draw a pistol to use it in a hurry and releasing a safety can still be forgotten" - even if you always train that way.

If a pistol is holstered and not faffed about with then all should be OK.

I guess most of this comes down to several factors.

1. Competence of the carrier

2. Roll it is required for

3. Design for purpose.

I see the argument against safeties where instant reaction is required, then the firing mech needs to be ned proof and absoloutely and only function well when required.

I also wonder about carrying made ready in vehicles/aircraft.

Plenty of NDs there.....where you need them least

No problem in a car with the right holster - a problem is sudden so a quick draw is needed. There are plenty of decent holsters about, problem is someone will spend $1000 on a pistol and $40 for a cheapo Walmart holster...HELLOOOOO . or worse, shoved down the front of some clowns trousers movie style.

In a plane with an Air Marshall, well they aren't going to need that "sudden response" draw are they..hopefully. They will be choosing their moment so safeties can be disengaged discreetly one would hope. Air Marshalls are better trained I am told. Again, as long as no one faffs with the trigger.

I agree if you are carrying a battle rifle around all day a safety is no bad thing - apply or not depending on alert status maybe?? Pistols are not usually carried around in the hand like a rifle.

Sim G wrote:

breacher wrote:Any firearm ( regardless of design or what safety is fitted ) will only discharge the trigger is pulled on a firearm already made ready.

There is a reason for the "N" in ND - the operator is at fault - not the firearm.

Not so. I know of an incident where a fella was running up the back stair case of RUC Castlereagh when the S&W 59 he was carrying, made ready, with the safety on, came out of it's holster and hit the stair muzzle down. It fired....

Also, those "against" such devices, read some of Ayoob's files in regards to how a safety aids weapon retention and his recommendations.

This thread is about NDs - yes, if a weapon falls a certain way the impact may do what the trigger normally does.

But when it comes to NDs as we know them, it is operator error.

One simple question why do the vast majority of handgun manufacturers fit external safety catch. Because they look good, it gives them something to do, Or maybe it cuts down on the number of N/D-S its not rocket science. Remember you have a choice if you want to have it on or off.

ordnance wrote:One simple question why do the vast majority of handgun manufacturers fit external safety catch. Because they look good, it gives them something to do, Or maybe it cuts down on the number of N/D-S its not rocket science. Remember you have a choice if you want to have it on or off.

so they can sell them to folk who think as you do :cool2: and it is a habit/tradition formed almost a hundred years before the Glocks et al came onto the scene

so they can sell them to folk who think as you do :cool2: and it is a habit/tradition formed almost a hundred years before the Glocks et al came onto the scene

So the manufacturers are wrong and you know better than the people that make the firearms. Ok remove all safety catches from rifles shotguns and handguns as they are just a ( habit/tradition ) and serve no purpose and there is no need for them in your opinion.

The fact that Glock feels the need to point out that the firearm does not have a external safety that it can be an issue if not handled properly. And as we know people will not handle them properly human nature.

Similar systems for internal safeties have since become standard for many major manufacturers of semi-automatic pistols. However, Glock pistols, like any other firearm, can discharge and cause injury or death if the operator accidentally or negligently manipulates the trigger. ( The absence of a traditional safety switch means that Glock users who intend to carry the gun on their person with the loaded chamber must be cautious )