The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

So have you forgotten that 16g I gave you as a birthday present? Doesn't it need love too?

christel wrote:Colour is very important, it is all to do with how you feel on the firing point.

So I have noticed on more than one occasion....



EDIT - 3 cases in the air would suggest you were enjoying yourself...

:lol: :lol:

Well it is razz

John25 wrote: The NRA Imperial Meeting is in decline and the format has to change.

This is a personal observation, I would be interested in your views. Target Rifle shooters are, in the main, scornful of 'F' class shooting.

So, the point I am trying to make is, how long can the Imperial Meeting continue in it's present form? and:

Is it time to make more space for 'F' class stand alone and/or 'any ammo' competitions at the Imperial main meeting?

OK, right at the start I am going to cough to being a G&T drinker (and member of the North London RC to boot), public school and Oxbridge educated. Worse yet, I'm not ashamed of any of these things. Pass the tar and feathers chaps!

Flippant answers aside, John raises fair questions about TR shooting and the Imperial. I do think a lot of TR shooters are dismissive of F Class shooting, and the Imperial Meeting format has changed in the past and it must change again in the future to bring on board other disciplines, but there will always be a special place for TR shooting.

First off, let's talk about F Class. I do think that a lot of TR shooters think that F Class is a bit mickey mouse. The prevailing view if often (but not always) that a lot less skill is required because effers can rest the rifle (so don't have the position issues of TR to deal with), can use optics (and so can see wind indicators while in the aim and have far fewer aiming and head position issues), can use high BC bullets (and so need less wind reading skill) and can use handloads (so more accurate and therefore need less skill than TR.) Do I agree? No and yes. I do agree that probably less skill is needed in some areas, but this is made up for by the targets being a quarter of the size and different skills being required. A lot of people seem to make the error of thinking that just because the skills that they're interested in are not represented, there's not skill at all. That I do not agree with. All this said, I think that a lot of F Classers don't get TR either and can be equally dismissive.

Moving on to the other questions, it is vital that the format of the Imperial Meeting continues to evolve to include new disciplines and new formats for the disciplines already in place. I can't answer detailed questions about range space and so on, simply because I don't have the knowledge to do so, but given the number of entries in the main meeting (circa 1000) versus the capacity (1770ish if I remember correctly from the Millenium Meeting) there's plenty of space for other disciplines to shoot alongside.

On a final, cost-related note. TR is getting expensive. A new target rifle is the best part of £4k and it costs nearly £2 a bang when transport, accommodation, food, ammo and range hire are included. Good organisation and handloading can cut these down and kit tends to be longlasted and using secondhand kit can cut down the initial outlay, but it's still getting to be an expensive sport.

Cheers,

Gaz

GazMorris wrote:
OK, right at the start I am going to cough to being a G&T drinker (and member of the North London RC to boot), public school and Oxbridge educated. Worse yet, I'm not ashamed of any of these things.

Gaz

But aren't you Welsh?

Iain

TR isn't glamorous. There, I said it. You shoot prone position only with rifles that aren't particularly exciting from any aspect, other than the technical - and technical detail puts off newbies. Plus there's a real image problem with the "bondage gear" jacket and sling and glove and hat, and I've heard more than one person call it that. A lot of first-timers try the jacket and sling, think "****ing hell this is uncomfortable" and either go to shoot another discipline, or more likely, just don't come back.

You also have the learning curve aspect of TR. With .22TR being almost the exclusive preserve of the older generation now, new (young) shooters aren't interested. So they miss out on all the aspects of how to build the position from first principles. If they try fulbore TR straightaway, there's so many variables which they need to master all at once, meaning progress is slow at best and they give up in frustration. Add to that the wind-reading, plotting, scoring and all the rest, and you have a discipline with some pretty steep barriers to entry.

I say all of that as someone who loves TR. I haven't even touched on the financial aspect, which is why I - someone who wasn't too bad at TR - haven't shot the Imperial since 2007 and only ever plan to shoot the Weekend Aggregate. I am not made of gold, nor can I afford large enough quantities of RUAG to practice enough to be competitive in the meeting. The entry fees are pretty high, whichever way you look at them, and the kit is eyewateringly pricey. I reckon a full TR setup, including a second- or third-hand rifle, won't leave you much change from £1500 even if you go for the el cheapo secondhand gear out there.

Then there's the little issue of competitiveness. The rifles a lot of younger shooters at the club/university level have access to are old and shot out. Not for want of trying, that's just the economics of club guns. Younger shooters don't have the time, equipment or inclination to sit around with reloading gear assembling ammunition - they want the instant fun of turning up to the range, shooting and enjoying themselves. Fleecing the poor buggers before they even begin is what, in my opinion, drives a lot of them away from the sport.

I can honestly see TR dwindling to become a niche discipline within the next 10-15 years. Answers? Briefly, lower the costs and make it easier to participate. If the NRA was to establish a dozen or so "pool rifles" kept on a butt at the Imperial, and encourage novice shooters to turn up, pick up a gun and have a go alongside the regular competitors, perhaps that would ease the way a bit?

I can also see there being a large image problem with the visible minority of practical shooters who seem to use the discipline as a way of living out their airsofter-style fantasies of carrying a tacticool rifle in public while wearing tacticool gear. But that's another can of worms.

christel wrote::lol: :lol:

Well it is razz

No it isn't, it's a firearm for Gods sake not a fashion accessory. Women! :roll:

Blu

shugie wrote:

dave_303 wrote:Something I've notice over the years, particularly in the .22 world, .22TR is dying, my primary rifle club in Somerset is now predominately .22 Benchrest or Sporting/gallery rifle. The shooting society at the University of Kent is entirely Sport/Gallery rifle, with some clay shooting, and looking to some service rifle shooting at Bisley and Hythe

Is that still going? I first shot Martini action .22 with them at the range on the adjacent school grounds in 1981.

It was refounded last year, we heard there had been one in the past but no one knew anything about it, Do you remember which school? St. Edmunds or Kent College? We know nothing of a range in that location they shoot in Deal, have had discussions with Herne Bay and Ashford

IainWR wrote:

GazMorris wrote:
But aren't you Welsh?

Iain

Cymro ydw I.

Gaz

I shoot at a club based at Bisley and TR dominates, but its a old club with very few younger shooter's.
I've been shooting for a couple of years there and I'm one of the younger ones (not that young) and it seems very difficult to get a new generation interested in TR.
Personally TR is expensive and to them it looks old fashioned! Personally I'd rather shoot some old service rifle's. Cheaper to buy and feed and have a good time! Don't get me wrong I love to shoot TR but to shoot competitively, it's not going to happen on my budget! F Class is sooo expensive as well.