The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Obvious troll/journalist is obvious.

murder to be illegal but the difference between countries where a person can, on the spur of a moment or after planning, go out and murder dozens of people IS the availability of firearms.

So someone needs a firearm to kill dozens of people. The twin towers were brought down by terrorist with box cutters. People were killed in Boston by a homemade bomb. People were killed in Oklahoma by a homemade bomb. A pilot flew his plane into the ground killing 150 people. etc etc. You don't need firearms to kill people, you are falling for the anti gun propaganda. Follow your logic and ban all firearms in the UK and it will help prevent people being murdered, except for those that are killed by knives, and the other numerous ways people are murdered. And of course those murdered by people with illegal firearms.

It's absolutely true that he could go out and try to do the same with a knife or his fists but both of those are less dangerous than an assault rifle. If I'm unarmed I'm much more likely to fancy my chances against one man with a knife or his fists because all I really need to do is pin him down and control his weapon hand

What about if he had a pump action shotgun, or a 10/22 semi / auto rifle. Both easy to get legally in the UK.

Demonic69 wrote:Some states have over 50% gun ownership but fewer gun deaths than the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... s_by_state

I believe the laws of each country and state are only the business of the people who live, work and vote in those places... However, your statement above is just plain wrong. From your link, the state with the lowest firearm homicide rate is Vermont at 0.3 per 100,000 people. The UK for the same period was 0.04, around a tenth of the Vermont numbers. Add in Suicide and Unintentional deaths which are considerably higher in the US and the assertion just doesn't stack up. The U.S. as a whole has over forty times the gun deaths per capita as the UK (10.3 per 100,000 vs 0.25 per 100,000)

Again, no political message implied or intended.

Kungfugerbil wrote:

Demonic69 wrote:Some states have over 50% gun ownership but fewer gun deaths than the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... s_by_state

I believe the laws of each country and state are only the business of the people who live, work and vote in those places... However, your statement above is just plain wrong. From your link, the state with the lowest firearm homicide rate is Vermont at 0.3 per 100,000 people. The UK for the same period was 0.04, around a tenth of the Vermont numbers. Add in Suicide and Unintentional deaths which are considerably higher in the US and the assertion just doesn't stack up. The U.S. as a whole has over forty times the gun deaths per capita as the UK (10.3 per 100,000 vs 0.25 per 100,000)

Again, no political message implied or intended.

One of the Elephants in the room though also is how murder are recorded. The US is also the only western country that does not base its murder figures on Clearup. In other words a murder is on the records even if not solved. Here its required to be cleared up i.e. Solved. So keep that in mind when comparing figures. On the flipside the worst year for UK murder for that very reason was one of the early 2000's years (when they came to the conclusion Harold Shipman had murders running into the hundreds, I can't be sure if the US would have just assigned the figures to the years they happened or if in the uk it was deemed proper to record them as occuring recently). Ironically if the US adopted the clear up method of recording, murder rates would drop, but here if the US method or recording was adopted we'd have larger rates than before. On a side note, its why Scottish rates are kept seperate to this UK rate. Different definitions of murder/homicide.

Sixshot6 wrote:The US is also the only western country that does not base its murder figures on Clearup. In other words a murder is on the records even if not solved.

Not according to the FBI - the stats on the above link come from them, and they in turn collate the data from the UCR (Universal Crime Reporting) program:

What you won’t find on this page

Arrest data are not on this page. In its calculations, the UCR Program counts the number of offenses that are cleared, not the number of persons arrested.

I have no axe to grind and have no issue with gun control in the US - I don't live there so don't see that it's any of my business. I also love to shoot and love the times I visit (and shoot) in the US :)

Obvious troll/journalist is obvious.

i was beginning to wonder if it was only me, not giving a straight answer to wether he has applied to one of the premier clubs near him (tondu)


greenshoots

Kungfugerbil wrote:

Sixshot6 wrote:The US is also the only western country that does not base its murder figures on Clearup. In other words a murder is on the records even if not solved.

Not according to the FBI - the stats on the above link come from them, and they in turn collate the data from the UCR (Universal Crime Reporting) program:

What you won’t find on this page

Arrest data are not on this page. In its calculations, the UCR Program counts the number of offenses that are cleared, not the number of persons arrested.

I have no axe to grind and have no issue with gun control in the US - I don't live there so don't see that it's any of my business. I also love to shoot and love the times I visit (and shoot) in the US :)

Must have changed the methods since I last checked then. I guess the thing is, the UK is not the US and the US not the uk. Firearms laws such as the pistol ban did no real difference to crime here as has been covered too many times to death and for various reasons why it doesn't make a whole heap of difference in the US. I guess culture always plays a part too. See Switzerland, Finland (hell serbia with a higher gunownership than the republic of Ireland manages a slightly lower level of firearms homicide (0.48 for Ireland vs 0.46 for serbia, and Serbia wen't through a bloody civil war much more recently than Ireland).

Kungfugerbil wrote:

Demonic69 wrote:Some states have over 50% gun ownership but fewer gun deaths than the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violen ... s_by_state

I believe the laws of each country and state are only the business of the people who live, work and vote in those places... However, your statement above is just plain wrong. From your link, the state with the lowest firearm homicide rate is Vermont at 0.3 per 100,000 people. The UK for the same period was 0.04, around a tenth of the Vermont numbers. Add in Suicide and Unintentional deaths which are considerably higher in the US and the assertion just doesn't stack up. The U.S. as a whole has over forty times the gun deaths per capita as the UK (10.3 per 100,000 vs 0.25 per 100,000)

Again, no political message implied or intended.

Again though, we were talking state by state and I was pointing mainly towards gun murders. The fact remains that millions more guns doesn't equal millions more deaths :-)

Demonic69 wrote:Again though, we were talking state by state and I was pointing mainly towards gun murders. The fact remains that millions more guns doesn't equal millions more deaths :-)

Indeed. But even the state with the lowest rate is ten times the UK for gun murders. The 'worst' state had four hundred times as many gun murders per capita.

For what it's worth, I believe the current restrictions in the UK to be ridiculous in some respects as evidenced by the increase in gun deaths post-ban.

I have no issue with your message, just the data :)

ColinR wrote:There is a new Secretary at FCSA, give Mike a call:
on 07814 582831

Thanks Colin,

I've been in touch with Mike the last couple of days and have sent him my probatation form. Just waiting to hear back re. the next range day.

Appreciate your help.