Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

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Blu

Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#41 Post by Blu »

Well folks I think I've written more than enough, hell I dare say there are folks on here thinking "yeah but this isn't America" and you would be right. The thing is guys even with the Second Amendment our fight is exactly the same as the fight you have over there, to the antis the Second Amendment means nothing. With that I'll finish with just one more thing.

I've just read all the comments on this thread again and I think we all agree that the whole damn thing is BS, it's a disgrace. Well you have two choices folks, you can sit on your hands, stick out the stiff upper lip and take it on the chin. Or you can fight back, lord knows I think it's about time you started to because up to now you have all been shafted over and over and they will keep shafting you because you are a soft target, they know you won't fight back.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Blu :twisted:
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Chuck
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Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#42 Post by Chuck »

Good words from Blu & Gaz. Of course this isn't a democracy - so buying a good legal team and a politician or three would work wonders for our cause.

Problem is that apathy and denial buy the self interested purist groups and don't care lot is a bigger enemy than the government
Political Correctness is the language of lies, written by the corrupt , spoken by the inept!
Gaz

Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#43 Post by Gaz »

Blu wrote:Okay mate now don't be jumping all over me for what I am about to write.

I think you're wrong. You write "We need every shooter in her constituency to write to her and pledge that she does not have their support."

Okay what if there are only a couple of dozen shooters in her constituency, you seriously think she's going to give a toss about a couple of dozen people?

"We need gun clubs in those areas to host events for her opponents, not her."

Which area's? Her area? Are there any ranges/clubs in Tower Hamlets? Simon you could invite her opposition for a day out shooting at say Bisley, now keep in mind they are politicians, they'll have their day, shake your hand, make all the right noises and then go back to London and the next day it's forgotten about. The b'stards will probably even claim expenses for the day out.
Not knocking it, Blu, but does the US NRA do any engagement type events for politicians? Or is the whole Second Amendment thing so deeply ingrained that it's a no-brainer for them to support/hate depending on affiliation?

I wanted to say you're wrong on the mobilising clubs against local political antis, but we've just seen how that approach doesn't work with the Labour MP on page 1 of this thread. Only a fortnight previously she had been invited to a country sports event where she, oddly enough, made all the right noises about protecting shooting. So, mobilising local clubs/shooters probably isn't going to work for anything above local council level.
huntervixen

Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#44 Post by huntervixen »

In the past certain sectors within the shooting fraternity in the UK haven't helped themselves, quite happy to turn on each other and allow certain elements of our sport to hang out to dry.

This is still an issue, I was talking to someone a while back that tried to join a new shooting club.....Only to be told quietly Not to bring "that black thing" back again - referring to his Colt .22lr, AR clone!!

This stuffy superior attitude is a classic (and unfortunately typical) issue that is still prevalent in some areas of the British shooting fraternity.

As an example of this, I overheard a guy at the range the other week really taking the p*** out of a youngster who regularly shoots airsoft.....great idea.....shoot down in flames the next generation of FAC holders!!

We, despite the slow and steady campaign to destroy our sport, are our own worse enemy - even the various shooting bodies in this county turn on each other!

I am happy to say I am a member of a club (Severnside) and The Sportsmen's Association, both welcome shooters of all ages and shooting persuasions.

IT'S TIME TO WAKE UP AND SMELL THE TEA, PULL TOGETHER OR LOSE OUR SPORT !!
Blu

Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#45 Post by Blu »

Gaz,
Not knocking it, Blu, but does the US NRA do any engagement type events for politicians? Or is the whole Second Amendment thing so deeply ingrained that it's a no-brainer for them to support/hate depending on affiliation?
Well Gaz that really depends on which party they belong to. Not all Democrats are anti gun but unfortunately most are. Then on the Republican side not all are pro gun but again most are and you will find that most of them shoot as well as hunt so really there is no need to have engagement type events. In the past the US NRA has invited politicians from the Democrat party to come out to the range and see for themselves, the few that have accepted the invites have either used it as a photo opportunity or to further their anti gun agenda by having a go at the type of firearms being shot. These days most of it is done through lobbying and law suits mate because you will never reason with the antis.

As a for instance, a while back I wrote on here that the Brady Bunch wanted mental health checks made on people wanting to buy firearms. The NRA agreed with that as did the majority of the membership (ballot papers were sent out to the members). Now then because the NRA agreed, the Brady Bunch turned around and said it didn't go far enough, that's it, they didn't come back with how far it should go in their eyes, hey go figure. They didn't expect the NRA to agree with them and when the NRA did, they didn't know what to do, hence you will never reason with them. Also the American Civil Liberties Union who aren't gun friendly either screamed it would be a breach of civil rights and an invasion of privacy yet the year before they were advocating for mental health checks, again go figure.



[/quote]I wanted to say you're wrong on the mobilising clubs against local political antis, but we've just seen how that approach doesn't work with the Labour MP on page 1 of this thread. Only a fortnight previously she had been invited to a country sports event where she, oddly enough, made all the right noises about protecting shooting. So, mobilising local clubs/shooters probably isn't going to work for anything above local council level.[/quote]

This is why you guys need an organisation to take on the government at and above local level. I don't believe what you have now has the resources or money to do that. Hence it's time for a new organisation who's primary objective is to fight with all the tools available to it at all levels. It has to be new, it has to encompass all disciplines of shooting and it's membership cost has to be affordable. I truly believe you folks have the numbers to do all that, all it takes is the time and the commitment to get it done. I mean c'mon, out of the seven to eight hundred thousand people you have over there, they can't all be that fecking busy, some of them need to step up to the plate and fight the fight on your behalf.

I find it interesting that this Labour BS comes pretty soon after the SNP puts forward their bill on air guns. You can bet your last dollar there are those in Parliament who are watching and gauging how the Scottish thing goes and looking to see how easy it was or is. You folks need to get on top of this now, no use waiting to see if Labour win the next election, by then it may and probably will be too late.

Blu :twisted:
Blu

Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#46 Post by Blu »

huntervixen wrote:In the past certain sectors within the shooting fraternity in the UK haven't helped themselves, quite happy to turn on each other and allow certain elements of our sport to hang out to dry.

This is still an issue, I was talking to someone a while back that tried to join a new shooting club.....Only to be told quietly Not to bring "that black thing" back again - referring to his Colt .22lr, AR clone!!

This stuffy superior attitude is a classic (and unfortunately typical) issue that is still prevalent in some areas of the British shooting fraternity.

As an example of this, I overheard a guy at the range the other week really taking the p*** out of a youngster who regularly shoots airsoft.....great idea.....shoot down in flames the next generation of FAC holders!!

We, despite the slow and steady campaign to destroy our sport, are our own worse enemy - even the various shooting bodies in this county turn on each other!
IT'S TIME TO WAKE UP AND SMELL THE TEA, PULL TOGETHER OR LOSE OUR SPORT !![/quote]

Huntervixen, Okay so you've identified a part of the problem. What are you as shooter and if you like your friendly club going to do about it?
We, despite the slow and steady campaign to destroy our sport, are our own worse enemy - even the various shooting bodies in this county turn on each other!


That's really good to hear, now what are you going to do about the clubs that don't welcome everyone. As you said "our own worse enemy", what are you going to do about it?

Blu :twisted:
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Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#47 Post by dromia »

Gaz wrote:
I wanted to say you're wrong on the mobilising clubs against local political antis, but we've just seen how that approach doesn't work with the Labour MP on page 1 of this thread. Only a fortnight previously she had been invited to a country sports event where she, oddly enough, made all the right noises about protecting shooting. So, mobilising local clubs/shooters probably isn't going to work for anything above local council level.
I agree that mobilising piecemeal at a local level won't work however local mobilisation co-ordinated nationally would at least get some national notice and raise the debate.

The key, which I keep banging on about, is good national leadership to plan, direct and mobilise shooters. It is about everybody doing something at the same time as well as dedicated few doing a lot.

I have to say I get a bit saddened with this continual downing of shooters being the fault, yes there are naysaying, discipline precious shooters that would sell their mothers to keep the little that they have at the expense of the rest but from my experience they are in minority and the vast majority of shooters and clubs that I see are open and have a fundamental understanding that the key to shooting is championing gun ownership not shooting disciplines as it is this factionalisation that divides us nationally. Within in the shooting community it is our national bodies that are our worst enemies as their inability to come together to forcefully grasp and drive the gun ownership agenda wastes the resources that we as shooters pay for already as members.

If there was a decent national body that could be respected and trusted with the gun owning agenda then I am sure that enough shooters would respond, the negativity that comes forward currently is because shooters have a long memory and still hurt from being shafted by the national organisations, especially the NRA, after Dunblane. This means that when talking about the issue we are talking about the current crop of morally bereft national bodies that seem more interested in looking after themselves than that gun ownership and shooting.

If there was a new movement, without the baggage of treachery and failure of the current crop, that would lead the fight, and when you see this latest sh!te from labour then believe me a fight it is, most of the shooters I know would respond with support and money. The vast majority of members of shooting bodies join only for one thing the insurance, in the case of the nra shooting at bisley as well. Very few join primarily because they believe that the organisation will save shooting from anti legislation.

Nothing will work until we as shooters have some belief in what we can do, until then we will continue to be victims. Unless we work on the positives in shooting, whilst acknowledging the negatives we will get nowhere.

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artiglio

Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#48 Post by artiglio »

Morning people,

Its all politics and the start of electioneering, shooters are a small minority and guns are an emotive subject for the majority, so an easy way to score points with voters.
In respect of the comments in Durham about suitability to hold firearms, I've no doubt there is a paper trail to support the decisions made at the time, the coroner etc. is effectively (to my mind ) asking for the guidance/legislation to be more direct.
According to my FEO, guidance with regard to variations suggests that home visits are required everytime, my FEO works to this and as a result in my area variations take ages. But you don't hear anyone complaining when guideance is interpreted ,in other parts of the country differently ,and variations are turned round by post in a week.
A review of legislation and fees is just a matter of time after the next election no matter who gets in. Fees will jump considerably and there will be further hoops to jump through, anyone with a history/involvement with drug / alcohol abuse , violence , domestic incidents, mental health issues, taking certain prescribed drugs, will almost certainly have a much harder time getting an FAC granted.
I would also expect that on each grant and renewal ,an appointment with and form/letter from your GP ,will be required at the applicants expense in addition to the police fee.
If we're lucky there will be some simplification ( once a full FAC is held for a period) on variations in respect of additional purchase requests, one for ones , ammunition hold limits, expanding ammunition.
Also combining SGC and FAC into one , may be considered.
On the subject of costs these could jump hugely even if 50% recovery is agreed. An example from my local council ( a bit off track i know) I have an ex council flat i rent out, as part of the lease I have to inform the council of any change of tenant and supply a copy of the tenancy agreement, to receive the letter and note the contents the fee is £72. I queried this and was told that this is the cost attributed to dealing withvthe information and includes, employees time, ( allowances for, productivity,holiday pay,sick pay, NI,pension,mmaternity leave ,etc) then the cost of , buildings, insurances, heat and light, IT, management, health and safety blah di blah.
Just imagine applying those rates to a full FAC application and grant.

All the best phil
huntervixen

Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#49 Post by huntervixen »

I think Adam has made some very good points there, I do think that rather than just try to hold back the anti gun flood and preserve what we have left, we do need a sensible and open, top down review of our Firearms legislation.

It is currently not fit for purpose, sloppy, ill conceived legislation that makes very little sense and with regional Police forces, making their own caveats to these already flawed rules, muddy the waters even further!!!

As Adam says, a solid new Shooting organization, that is Social media savvy and can go on the PR offensive, looking after our interests and (in my opinion) pushing for new sensible Firearms legislation, that would include the return of at least some semi-autos and handguns for target shooting purposes. (ban a specific type if you must, lets say the "UZI types" of SMG not a whole class of Firearm, lazy and stupid lawmaking)
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Re: Labour: gun applicants must "prove suitability"

#50 Post by Chuck »

ban a specific type if you must, lets say the "UZI types" of SMG not a whole class of Firearm, lazy and stupid lawmaking)
And once again you give them an excuse because that would be "a good FIRST STEP"!

Ban NOTHING!
Political Correctness is the language of lies, written by the corrupt , spoken by the inept!
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