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Years ago our club, along with other clubs in the area, used to belong to the Worcester Regiments Association. We used to shoot WRA competitions at Kidderminster on their TA range. Did it for many years until one day the army decided to built an interactive range on the site and close down the tin hut that was at that point used as the existing 25yd range. We shot the following year on the new range and at the end of the competition we went into the bar for a drink with the squaddies. Many of the TA lads were looking at our match cards and couldn't understand how we were able to get such high scores and how our groups were so tight and more importantly in the actual centre of the targets. We showed them one of our rifles and explained about aperture sights etc, and they were a little bemused by it all as obviously it was something that they were not used to and would never use in a war environment.
The following year we were sent a memo from someone high up in the TA telling us that we were not going to be able to shoot on their new range in the future. The reason...................... because we were not accurate enough and were shooting the range to bits.

The irony that hand loads are problematic, when the official ammo from the NRA for the 2019 imperial was potentially dangerous and damaged how many rifles and is being sold at a discount if you agree to a disclaimer when you buy it.

kevinww wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:33 am The irony that hand loads are problematic, when the official ammo from the NRA for the 2019 imperial was potentially dangerous and damaged how many rifles and is being sold at a discount if you agree to a disclaimer when you buy it.

Actually it was proven to be safe. But yes could damage some rifles by breaking the extractor only. If you removed your extractor & used a hand extractor as some did it, shot very well indeed. In a TR thats fine & that was what is was designed for.

The HL incidents are not like that, they are exploding rifles, I was there when one did, the owner was lucky the action split apart before the bolt could go thru their face, we never found the mag spring & a few other smaller bits!

The HL Failure modes to cause that sort of catastrophic failure are quite limited - e.g. Not enough power so a detonation effect, the wrong powder so excess pressure, too much of any powder so a pressure effect, & many think that can be exacerbated by wrong bullet length or seating. Go on some HL forums & you will find lots of discussion even prowess at how much you can get in a case, or velocity they can achieve - that negligent behaviour has to stop.

The SSC & Safe system of shooting was brought in to placate MOD & thats worked well doing exactly what it was supposed to do. The cost for all classifications is £10 for non NRA members, not £100 as somebody said above. So I suspect any additional requirement might be an SSC classification for HL, based on basic safe practice that can eliminate those gross failure modes, the cost will be a short course that I would hope can will be part online, & can be deployed by an affiliated club at minimal cost to its members, as many clubs already do.

That will help to assure the use of HL on MOD managed ranges & insurance coverage at today prices etc. Its a simple survey & there is nothing sinister in it, or any intentions beyond that.

I suspect that many of us have a different experience from the NRA than you have, so from those continuing bad experiences extreme scepticism is to be expected.

I sincerely hope that it will be at no extra cost to the shooter, if it isn't then 'twill be seen as another NRA money making scam. Along with more bureaucratic hoops to jump through that will make no difference to hand loading events happening.

I wonder how much time the NRA would put into placating the MoD if Bisley wasn't on an MoD range?

dromia wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:44 pm I sincerely hope that it will be at no extra cost to the shooter, if it isn't then 'twill be seen as another NRA money making scam. Along with more bureaucratic hoops to jump through that will make no difference to hand loading events happening.

I can't see that happening (bold added to the original quote my me), given they already run a hand loading course - https://nra.org.uk/events/nra-hand-loading-course/

2 days at Bisley, and £142 for members and £159 for non-NRA members. Oh, and focused on 7.62mm only, because presumably nobody shoots anything else. While I would love to be proved wrong, I suspect that the scope of this course will be expanded to other calibers (maybe have it also include a straight wall caliber in addition) but I highly doubt that it will be free for the shooter.

jmc67 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:53 pm

dromia wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:44 pm I sincerely hope that it will be at no extra cost to the shooter, if it isn't then 'twill be seen as another NRA money making scam. Along with more bureaucratic hoops to jump through that will make no difference to hand loading events happening.

I can't see that happening (bold added to the original quote my me), given they already run a hand loading course - https://nra.org.uk/events/nra-hand-loading-course/

2 days at Bisley, and £142 for members and £159 for non-NRA members. Oh, and focused on 7.62mm only, because presumably nobody shoots anything else. While I would love to be proved wrong, I suspect that the scope of this course will be expanded to other calibers (maybe have it also include a straight wall caliber in addition) but I highly doubt that it will be free for the shooter.

Yeah, running a reloading course for just 7.62x51 is just so typically blinkered NRA attitude.....

I'd actually be prepared to do, and pay for such a re-loading course, but I don't shoot 7.62x51...

As you say, a straight walled, pistol ammo course, covering the typical 38spl/357, 44mag and 45LC etc would be better, as well as a course for rifle covering 303, 30-06, 7.92x57, 7.63x54 etc
Fair enough if they still wanted to do a very specific 7.62x51 course for the bondage jacket brigade, but just catering for them only shows the typically blinkered view of the NRA.

jmc67 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:53 pm

dromia wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:44 pm I sincerely hope that it will be at no extra cost to the shooter, if it isn't then 'twill be seen as another NRA money making scam. Along with more bureaucratic hoops to jump through that will make no difference to hand loading events happening.

I can't see that happening (bold added to the original quote my me), given they already run a hand loading course - https://nra.org.uk/events/nra-hand-loading-course/

2 days at Bisley, and £142 for members and £159 for non-NRA members. Oh, and focused on 7.62mm only, because presumably nobody shoots anything else. While I would love to be proved wrong, I suspect that the scope of this course will be expanded to other calibers (maybe have it also include a straight wall caliber in addition) but I highly doubt that it will be free for the shooter.

The NRA handloading course is a basic course. Does and dont with practical loading of 308. I suspect 308 is probably the most common cartridge used. I dont shoot 308 but have plenty of mates who reload for it and none of them are TR shooters! Not sure why other cartridges would need to be included as the techniques are the same. Lets say you had 10 folk on the course and they all wanted to reload 10 different cartridges. That would mean the NRA having to buy loads of different die sets then manage this within the classroom. I understand that the NRA handloading courses are always over subscribed. I have attended the NRA course and it is very thorough. Not sure why any of it would be free. The staff running them need paying!

There is cast bullet reloading that needs a different approach to condom reloading.

Then there is reduced loads for indoor or short ranges with a MV/ME restriction.

Black powder cartridge reloading another differing approach.

Shotgun cartridge reloading.

Hand loading is a broad and eclectic church.

However I suspect that as the NRA seems to be competition focused then the handloading would be calibres pertaining to the "disciplines" they are involved in. All well and good for the minority of gun owner/ shooters who follow such pursuits. How ever I suspect that the vast majority of shooters who attend MoD ranges across the country are plinkers with no competitive bent or restrictions to such calibres. There interest if in firearms (usually old and second hand) and how to get them to shoot well.

I currently handload for nigh on two dozen calibres, 308/7.62 and .223 are not on that list.

Also I still cannot see how all this relates to a measurable safety improvement especially as the NRA is yet again pandering to the MoD's ignorance of the subject and their desire for paper trails.

What is the scale of the problem this is trying to address?

Also where is the evidence to show that it is because of a lack of training that the "accidents" rather than a experienced hand loader just having that "off" moment in his process.

Everytime I hear of such and incident I think "there but for the grace of god go I".

How is a handloading course going stop such moments in the future, which to re-iterate i suspect is the main cause of "accidents" rather than a lack of training. That combined sometimes with a touch of macho ego that some people suffer from thinking that the highest speed they can get a bullet to fly is the sole purpose of acquiring handloading skill and kit.

I am an experienced handloader of over four decades and take handloading very seriously, the greatest threat to my handloading safety in over familiarity leading to sloppiness. I try very hard to keep up my standards but know that I am human and can and do make mistakes, luckily not so far at the reloading bench.

Regarding paying, well in the past I have run handloading courses for clubs and have not sought payment, it was all part of giving something back and hopefully contributing to a safer firing line which then I would benefit from.

Must be a different world nowadays, expenses I can understand.

I am also interested in what makes a handloader a fit instructor to run such courses, will the NRA be running instructor courses, more dosh for them. and who sets the standards and syllabus?

mag41uk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:19 pm

jmc67 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:53 pm

dromia wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:44 pm I sincerely hope that it will be at no extra cost to the shooter, if it isn't then 'twill be seen as another NRA money making scam. Along with more bureaucratic hoops to jump through that will make no difference to hand loading events happening.

I can't see that happening (bold added to the original quote my me), given they already run a hand loading course - https://nra.org.uk/events/nra-hand-loading-course/

2 days at Bisley, and £142 for members and £159 for non-NRA members. Oh, and focused on 7.62mm only, because presumably nobody shoots anything else. While I would love to be proved wrong, I suspect that the scope of this course will be expanded to other calibers (maybe have it also include a straight wall caliber in addition) but I highly doubt that it will be free for the shooter.

The NRA handloading course is a basic course. Does and dont with practical loading of 308. I suspect 308 is probably the most common cartridge used. I dont shoot 308 but have plenty of mates who reload for it and none of them are TR shooters! Not sure why other cartridges would need to be included as the techniques are the same. Lets say you had 10 folk on the course and they all wanted to reload 10 different cartridges. That would mean the NRA having to buy loads of different die sets then manage this within the classroom. I understand that the NRA handloading courses are always over subscribed. I have attended the NRA course and it is very thorough. Not sure why any of it would be free. The staff running them need paying!

you would expect, by doing the course, you would then want to actually load... so you would then want the dies, so it would make sense for the dies to be bought by you to do the course

bradaz11 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:54 pm

mag41uk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:19 pm

jmc67 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:53 pm

I can't see that happening (bold added to the original quote my me), given they already run a hand loading course - https://nra.org.uk/events/nra-hand-loading-course/

2 days at Bisley, and £142 for members and £159 for non-NRA members. Oh, and focused on 7.62mm only, because presumably nobody shoots anything else. While I would love to be proved wrong, I suspect that the scope of this course will be expanded to other calibers (maybe have it also include a straight wall caliber in addition) but I highly doubt that it will be free for the shooter.

The NRA handloading course is a basic course. Does and dont with practical loading of 308. I suspect 308 is probably the most common cartridge used. I dont shoot 308 but have plenty of mates who reload for it and none of them are TR shooters! Not sure why other cartridges would need to be included as the techniques are the same. Lets say you had 10 folk on the course and they all wanted to reload 10 different cartridges. That would mean the NRA having to buy loads of different die sets then manage this within the classroom. I understand that the NRA handloading courses are always over subscribed. I have attended the NRA course and it is very thorough. Not sure why any of it would be free. The staff running them need paying!

you would expect, by doing the course, you would then want to actually load... so you would then want the dies, so it would make sense for the dies to be bought by you to do the course

Why would you want to do the course I have been handloading for over 30 years what is a course going to teach me. I hand load for straight wall pistol. I hand load for several rifle calibers. I cast and re load cat bullets. I shoot full bore rifles with cast bullets and fast pistol powders in doors. What difference is a piece of paper from the NRA saying I can re load 7.62x51 going to make.