The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

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WelshShooter wrote:

dromia wrote:"Downloading" is just hand loading, stick with published data, safe hand loading practice's and a responsible attitude all will be well.

In our club we provide a chronograph all loads have to be signed off and there is a paper trail, all our members are happy with this and comply.

If it is a club then the rules are the members property not just the committees. Committee's can be changed if they are not fit for purpose.

Wait a minute, you mean to say that your club uses measured evidence to demonstrate a particular load is acceptable?! Preposterous! We can't be having none of that logic business going on

I know, dire isn't it.

The problem is "common sense" isn't common, especially in a lot of gun clubs it seems.

Combine that with risk averse insurers and there you have it, the shift the blame paper chase. Ho hum what a tiresome world we live in.

dromia wrote:

Furiouspilgrim wrote:When I, and therefor our club, use the term ‘download’ or ‘downloaded’, it’s to cover any round, pistol or rifle, that typically has far less velocity and muzzle energy than it’s factory round. The ‘downloaded’ part is to describe the fact it’s been reduced to suit the range limits. It’s been ‘loaded-down’ if you will.

My downloads for my range might be over the limit for someone else’s range. Always best to check.

We would call that "appropriate" ammunition for our range.

What’s appropriate about it?

Thankfully the term downloaded is accepted to describe a specific practice.

Wow that went off at a tangent.
Only centre fire pistol ammunition with in the range limits are allowed.
Downloaded centre fire ammunition is not permitted incase of an ammunition mix up and a 'full power' round is sent down the range.
So I guess my hunt! Continues for a suitable rifle.

My point is why should a range safety certificate specify no downloaded cartridges? I can understand a club rule (we think it a tad risky so wont allow it) but what range construction & use criteria can outlaw downloaded ammo? a 35spl is similar / size weight slug ~80 grain to a 303, both can be propelled below a ranges MV & both then have similar ME. So what rationale is there to ban a 303 80grain slug vs a 38spl pistol cal with similar weight?

NB i could give cases to a certain ammo manufacturer & have it made to a down loaded spec, CIP / Proof checked & sold with CE / public liability - one could be a pistol cal 38 the other a 303 - one is banned on some ranges, the other isn't but the 303 looks nothing like its higher velocity / energy FMJ cousin.................

You could use one of the chamber inserts. Use .32 ACP rounds then.

I was not allowed to shoot my 30-30 on indoor range...110 gn cast with 5gns Unique...well within range limits...but not a "pistol calibre"...unless you look at the Thompson Contender! The .44 Mags were much more powerful but of course allowed as pistol calibre....where is the sense...mind you, the sight of a bottleneck cartridge has been known to make pistol calibre shooters faint...

In effect, you could consider most .22lr cartridges as "downloaded" since the cartridge contains a powder load which is much reduced from the maximum safe capacity and designed to a specific mv.

Mike95

hitchphil wrote:Why should / could it have a prohibition? if a rifle is under the MV & Energy why prohibit it because of its 'description'?

It is banned on our range in line with NRA guidance

"c. Cartridges which, when normally loaded, would exceed the ME/MV limits of any specific range, may not be used on that range even if downloaded."

https://nra.org.uk/nra-bisley/ranges/la ... gulations/

The argument being, unless you chrono every round the club only has the say so of the shooter that a round is below the limits.

Therefore, easier to disallow the practice.

This "pistol" calibre nonsense is what happens when the incompetent amateurs that populate/populated the NSRA when they issued these ridiculous range certificates with these totally undefined categories, these bunch of idiots have caused and are causing continual unecessary bother to shooters and shooting on ranges they have certified.

.357 and .44 magnums for example are "pistol" calibres and can be well over the top for muzzle energy and velocity on a lot of 25 yrd ranges but are allowed as they comply with the certificate as they are "pistol" calibres, whosoever came up with that as a criteria for a range certificate is a consummate tw@t.

The only meaningful and necessary limits on a range certificate are the muzzle velocity, muzzle energy and maximum calibre, if the ammunition is with these limits then there is absolutely no reason for them not to be allowed.

You should also be able to evidence that the ammunition, factory or handload is with in the limits of the certificate, only then will you know if shooters are complying with the range certificate, reliable chronographs are cheap nowadays so there is no excuse for a club/individual not being able to verify what velocities and energy with a given bullet their ammunition is delivering.

Hrun wrote:

hitchphil wrote:Why should / could it have a prohibition? if a rifle is under the MV & Energy why prohibit it because of its 'description'?

It is banned on our range in line with NRA guidance

"c. Cartridges which, when normally loaded, would exceed the ME/MV limits of any specific range, may not be used on that range even if downloaded."

https://nra.org.uk/nra-bisley/ranges/la ... gulations/

The argument being, unless you chrono every round the club only has the say so of the shooter that a round is below the limits.

Therefore, easier to disallow the practice.

Those regulations pertain to the Bisley ranges only and is not to be taken nationally, I can see some reason in this from the NRA's view in relation to Bisley's size, different ranges and at times the sheer numbers of shooters it has to manage. However the NRA club insurance is happy to cover ammunition loaded to be within range limits with a suitable paper trail evidencing the velocity and energy of the ammunition used so applying the Bisley guidance to other club ranges outwith Bisley is likely not appropriate.

Following your logic then for ammunition like the 38 special which is for the sake of argument within the range limits of most 25yrd ranges but could be loaded by design or accident to exceed the range limits, the only way you will ever know if any round has been within the a ranges limits is to chronograph it and if one is found to exceed those limits then it is too late anyway as it has already been discharged.

Running clubs and ranges requires trusting of your membership in so many areas, it never fails to amaze me the arbitrary way in which this trust runs out in some clubs.