Anal FEO

[saddler]

The conditions that clubs have to follow for their Home Office approval changed on the 2nd Feb. Worth noting that the club now has to keep a record of the exact firearm used, not just the caliber. Just working on a new Range Log..

Indeed. This is most annoying as whenever I'm shooting PSG/multi-gun comps at guest clubs I have to write out the full serial number of my gun(s) in the log. Thinking of making up some stickers with the numbers on to save time.

My own clubs get your serial numbers with each renewal and assign the gun a number (1-10 etc), so then you can just write a number or the make/model of the gun in the book rather than the serial number.

Your club and indeed your good self are doing more than is required prior to the recent change (which as I've shown in previous post has been reverted back to the version from 2012) you have been and currently only are required to do the following:

5. The attendance register should be kept for all shooting members of the club
although its principal use will be in relation to those members who hold firearm
certificates. This is to comply with Lord Cullen’s recommendation that shooters
should not have firearms on their certificates which are not used regularly. For this
reason, it will be necessary to record in the register the description of the firearm(s)
used as given in the member’s firearm certificate. All visiting shooters should be
logged in the same way. In the case of competition shoots between clubs, the
responsibility for recording the attendance of a team member will lie with the club
that the shooter represents. In the case of open competitions, the organising club will
record details of competitors. Clubs should retain their attendance records for a
minimum of 6 years

Marlin .357 will be enough to suffice for eg if you have only one in that calibre.

I do agree though - recording your firearms details and using an "index" no to refer to each is a good idea.

Tried the "Marlin 357" approach with club 1 above.
Would result in club officials screaming at me down the phone demanding serial no's!
Way above what the suggested records required...anal club attitude.

[nickb834]

I hear you Saddler - too many clubs are too anal.

One of mine is a bit on the lax side with record keeping (6 years of records would be fun to produce, suspect the club sec hoovers them up once a year and scans - no idea what retention policy nor backup strategy he has). On the flip side, we've got good safety procedures and standards that aren't over the top, and by that I mean - they do what they're supposed to rather than look all uber strict and tick boxes.

Too often clubs look to prohibit everything out of existence, instead of looking at how to facilitate what shooters want to do.

There's a club up north that requires signing statements and having every load chrono'd before shooting home loads - hows about instead, describe the velocity / energy limits in place, and remind shooters that obeying said limits and safe practices is down to the shooter - and that deliberate disobeyance of the previous is viewed exceedingly dimly. After all, if you can be trusted with an FAC.....

Back to the OP's point - I see too many new members receiving their initial grant and having slots inexplicably missing and not challenging as to why - no wonder FEO's / FLO's / FLM's make it up as they go along.

Further to that - I don't think enough people pay attention to what it says in the relevant acts such that they can challenge anything improper and we get incidents as per the OP.

When they come round for a chat with me - I have within easy reach (though not necessarily staring them in the face) the law and guidance and very politely ask where does it state whatever has just been described to me. I'd rather the visit ended where we're both clear on what the law and guidance actually says such that neither one of us has to do any kind of follow up / complaint etc - there's a balance to be struck too - it needs to be friendly and polite, no point pi55ing them off - better to get them on side as it just makes life so much easier. In my particular case this has worked well, as my background has been a little 'sketchy' and yet I've still received everything I asked for (W. Yorks is my force - which some would tell you is a nightmare).

[Rockhopper]

The thing with clubs making what appear to be anal rules is that the club ticket is usually in an individuals name and that person is responsible if it anything goes wrong.

[nickb834]

The thing with clubs making what appear to be anal rules is that the club ticket is usually in an individuals name and that person is responsible if it anything goes wrong.

Don't I know it - one of my clubs FAC's is about to be in my name. Though I think the Club Secretary has got the worst job whether he holds the FAC or not.

I would posit though - if a person is that worried about what they're doing - then are they the best person for the job?

If you've satisfied yourself with what the law and the guidance says - and comply with it, then there's no need to be anal or worried.

On the committee I have the dubious pleasure of sitting on, we try to be as permissive as possible.

[artiglio]

Lots of comments in the thread about what various clubs do and don't do and how these approaches are viewed. Perhaps its easy to forget that many clubs are run by committees of volunteers ( effectively) and as such made up of those willing to put extra time and effort into keeping a club going.
As a result a clubs procedures will be drawn up in a manner that the committee feels covers the clubs responsibilities under the legislation and which also protects the committee members. The result of which may often appear to be over the top in terms of paperwork and rules.
If a clubs requirements go beyond that required under the letter of the law so be it, its all part of the "charm" of small clubs and if members feel strongly enough about an issue they can always be elected to do something about it.
Personally I appreciate the often thankless task club officials have volunteered to do and realise that the time i spend filling in a log each time i attend will be far less than the effort put in by committee members running the club on my behalf.

[saddler]

Clubs.

My quoted "Club 1", again.
Loses MoD pistol range when the base closes.

Spends a few years & s fair few quid building a new range as a joint venture.
They ENSURE that the new range is approved for Shotgun with solid slug.
They then ban members from using solid slug (before it even opens): BUT they allow another club to hire the range, for the sole intention of doing solid slug shooting.
I try to have an organisation book the range for the same idea....result = screaming heebee geebees!
"You cannot do that" (from the person that wrote the rules to say the range CAN be hired by third parties on non-club days)
He was reminded of this by the rest of the committee! Esp. annoying as he was ok with the other club hiring the range!
The LANDOWNER where the range was built also has the right to use on non-club days!

Maybe it's contagious?

[ChrisB]

FWIW - the changes to club approval were reverted back to what we had prior:

https://ukshootingnews.wordpress.com/20 ... a-changes/

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... bs#history

15 February 2016 12:50pm
Document reverted to previous version.
2 February 2016 12:18pm
Updated guidance leaflet published.
24 April 2012 1:00am
First published.

Well, what a cluster .... Had not noticed it had been withdrawn as quietly as it was issued....good spotting.

[breacher]

Play them at their own game.

Depending on how fast you or slow you are - you could make the interview slow or frustratingly slower.

If everybody did this, all of a sudden the FEOs would get a talking to from management about workload backing up etc

Then they might stop being so pedantic.

Of course, you might have been unlucky and have a FEO who just cocked up in a big way, got a final warning and now is terrified of losing his job so is trying to be "perfect".

[Maggot]

Good luck if they wanted to do that in my place, I load what I need but I have bits and bats stowed allez uber de platz!!

I had a go a while back because someone wanted my round count in a variation.....as I pointed out I hand load (I do keep records) and the lot would go down the range the day after thus rendering it all a bit futiel but still the boy persisted.

Oddly its not on our new form

[nickb834]

Lots of comments in the thread about what various clubs do and don't do and how these approaches are viewed. Perhaps its easy to forget that many clubs are run by committees of volunteers ( effectively) and as such made up of those willing to put extra time and effort into keeping a club going.
As a result a clubs procedures will be drawn up in a manner that the committee feels covers the clubs responsibilities under the legislation and which also protects the committee members. The result of which may often appear to be over the top in terms of paperwork and rules.
If a clubs requirements go beyond that required under the letter of the law so be it, its all part of the "charm" of small clubs and if members feel strongly enough about an issue they can always be elected to do something about it.
Personally I appreciate the often thankless task club officials have volunteered to do and realise that the time i spend filling in a log each time i attend will be far less than the effort put in by committee members running the club on my behalf.

For the avoidance of doubt - you did see that I'm on the committee of one of my clubs, and am taking on the club FAC ? and that therefore I'm one of those club officials who volunteered to improve things for all of us. Case in point - bar the odd exception I give up 52 Wednesday nights every year to RCO and train up the probationers, I repair club guns, maintain the range, collect ammunition and so on.

To that end I feel perfectly ok commenting on how my club / other clubs are run as I'm one of the ones (of a fair few) at one of my clubs trying to improve things from the inside.

In my experience as an elected committee member - committees tend to put things in the "too hard to do box" as it turns into a 12 way debate about why we can't do something. Equally, and common to a lot of shooters - the general level of knowledge around what the law does and does not permit / prohibit amongst the committee members themselves is quite lacking.

I do find it a little ironic that we bemoan the arbitrary and conflicting statements that the FEO's / FLO's / Politicians etc spout - and we argue we're fit to be trusted - and then we accept whatever crud comes down from on high within our own clubs!