The old chestnut of firearms for self defence - a question..

[AJSawyer]

The problem with the military/police and their shooting skills, is the fact that they are forced into doing it. And people that are forced to do something, that they don't necessarily want to do, do not do it as well, as someone who actually wants to do it.

Hence why the 'armed' civvies as you put it are a better shot, they choose to shoot, choose to improve and choose to actually learn about the weapons they use. In the services they're forced to. Maybe not so the army, but certainly the police.

There is a world of difference between target shooting and killing in self defence.
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This, people just don't get it.

[Strangely Brown]

Not sure how relevent this is.
On holiday in Aix en Provence one night and realised we were being followed, I told Mrs Strangely Brown to put her handbag between us and we were watching him getting closer by using the reflections in shop windows.
When he started to make his move we both swung round and ran towards him, we couldn't see him for dust after that!

The next town we got to the day after was Orange where I purchased a knuckle duster which I still have and accompanies us when we go to France in the car.
I hope I'm never in the position where it gets used.

[Sim G]

Being armed for defence is not a "reaction". It is a preparedness much along the lines of other everyday planning. You don't dash out and buy a winter coat because you've just been caught in a snow storm. Likewise, if you only seek out house insurance after a tree has fallen through your roof.... well, what sort of responsible person would you be?

Some people are lucky that they can afford to live in nice areas and never feel threatened and long may that continue in the majority, but bad people can also wander around freely. They are not fenced in and like all predators, will venture out of their range to find the "food" they need. There has been a spate of home invasions recently, which may actually indicate a rising trend. But despite that, for the year to December last year, there were 6.8 million crimes recorded in the UK. One in 10 of us were victimised. Oh yes the overwhelming vast majority were non violent, but nearly three quarters of a million crimes were violent.

750 000 victims of violent crime in 2015. That's the population of 10 medium sized towns, combined.

Too often when subjects like this come up the "Chicken Lickin" brigade jump in with, "We're not America", "Blood on the Streets" and "Would you trust these people"..... In short, balderdash!

Being armed for your defence is a British Common Law right going back thousands of years. It only became outlawed, some would opine illegally, in 1953. That is within living memory for a fair chunk of UK nationals! Legislation was railroaded through by the Conservative government of the day who renaged on all sorts of concessions that should have been included or omitted. The 1953 Prevention of Crime Act was a nasty piece of treachery....

Again, throughout societies where the access of arms for law abiding citizens has been relaxed, nowhere has the massacres in car parks over spaces or neighbours killing neighbours over dog poop, it just hasn't happened. Those that argue it would have frankly nothing to base their argument on but fantasy. Even in Europe we have seen recently where the civilian population has chosen to acquire guns. Lithuania and Belarus have seen a massive upsurge since the Russian episode in Ukraine. Likewise, Hungarian and Swedish civilians have been buying guns hand over fist because of the perceived threat from immigrants in the light of European terrorist and criminal attacks. Is Sweden awash with the blood of neighbours? Of course it's not.

And exactly the same argument to those who say, "Would you trust these people". Well, as this is a shooting forum, we've all been around guns and ranges. I'm curious as to why someone would think that all of a sudden, the bloke who he once lay next to shooting a 300 yard bullseye with no issues, would all of a sudden become a raging lunatic or an incompetent because he was allowed a different type of firearm in a different situation?

Jeff Cooper wrote, "Owning a gun makes you no more armed, than owning a guitar makes you a musician" and Sir Winston Churchill said, "Every British household should be compelled to have good insurance and a sturdy revolver."....

[AJSawyer]

Sim, if I can just pick out one point there, it's not that I don't trust people to own firearms, it's that hitting the bullseye, and knowing WHEN to use a firearm, and doing so effectively and safely in a life threatening situation are two entirely different things.

[Sim G]

But ultimately, they are the same people. As I said, you wouldn't buy a guitar and expect to stand centre stage unless you had a lesson or two.....

And two days PST every year wouldn't prepare you either!

[ordnance]

I'm going to out myself here. I'm a copper. I work in a major UK City, I carry a pathetic baton that would probably collapse the moment I tried to hit someone with it, and a spray that does me more harm than the threat. I deal with violent people on a weekly, but mostly daily basis.

I do not feel the need to carry a firearm. I'm at risk. I don't want one, I don't need one.

I really enjoy shooting, and find firearms interesting, but do I need one for self defence? Absolutely not

If you were a police officer here you would have a different view on carrying a firearm, as for your self defence its not just about you defending yourself. Part of your job is defending the public, if for example the police first on the sceen of the cumbria shootings had to back off because they were not armed they might have being able to save lives if they were armed.

As for America were they can carry firearms for self defence, its still a minority that carry firearms.

[Sim G]

If you were a police officer here you would have a different view on carrying a firearm, as for your self defence its not just about you defending yourself. Part of your job is defending the public, if for example the police first on the sceen of the cumbria shootings had to back off because they were not armed they might have being able to save lives if they were armed.

Exactly! I don't like to draw inference from the situation in the Province as it is a particular and unique set of circumstances. However, two things to note are firstly, a routinely armed police force, on and off duty, and a fair slice of other civil service/military/selected civilian populations going about their daily business armed. No massacres in supermarket car parks over spaces....

And I'm sure it remains the same that of the four home countries, when paramilitary activity is counted out of the figures, Northern Ireland has the lowest crime rate per capita of the U.K. Coincidence...?

[lapua338]

If you train extensively for defence and have the right mindset then incapacitating someone with a handgun (or a carbine) is relatively straight forward.

A friend is a Gunsite Academy instructor and he's stated he can train pretty much anyone if they possess and demonstrate the appropriate aptitude.

I don't have an issue with self defence whether its with a gun, telescopic baton, pepper spray, etc.

I'd take no pleasure in it but if needs must...

[AJSawyer]

But ultimately, they are the same people. As I said, you wouldn't buy a guitar and expect to stand centre stage unless you had a lesson or two.....

And two days PST every year wouldn't prepare you either!

No, but real world experience does

[bradaz11]

my GF works in a kids home, basically little s*** that aren't bad enough for prison, but have done things that means the parents don't want them around themselves anymore. social service ping pong balls... anyway, the other night, the 3 kids that are in their house decided to go out, due to shortcomings of some of the staff and the fact the home doesn't have an alarm at present, they snuck out.
they went to a local woman's house that one of them knew, they then proceeded to attempt to break in, the woman heard and investigated, they hid, she looked around, then lights off again, they then got the door open, but disturbed her again. she shut the door and went back in again. they then got in the house on third attempt, she confronted 2 of them as the 3rd (who was the one that knew her was hiding outside) they pretended they'd been chased and she went to call the police. leaving them alone, they then took her purse and car keys, and stole her car. they were caught halfway up the m1 at around 1am in her ford focus, after a chase and subsequent crash.
these kids are between 10 and 14....
my GF was in their police interviews, apparently the original plan was to break in and attack the woman (in her 50's, who lives alone) and judging by some of their past history, I would fully suspect sexual assault. It was only because she was then awake that this didn't happen. and the one kid who knew her, was even quoted by both kids as asking them why they didnt just beat the s*** out of her when they got inside, rather than the story of being chased.
I'll say again, between 10 and 14.
are you going to expect if 3 little kids run up to you and ask for help that they will then attack you? and I know it sounds daft, could you defend yourself against 3 of them if they did try?

this is the youth of today, and the sort of 'kids' our police have to deal with. law abiding people live in fear of the law, the ones who break it realise there are no consequences and so do as they please