Israel: Giving its people a chance.

[Chuck]

Despite the ".22 will just p*** your attacker off" there hasn't been a case of that yet . In fact it's the opposite ! Loads of cases where attackers with guns / knives have been shot and killed with .22lr pistol that the victim was carrying

A .22 will more than p1ss off your attacker if you place the shots correctly..standard engagement / failure to stop drill: after all it WILL be close range!

Anyway, the whole ethos is to "stop the threat" not kill someone....dying is one of a number of side effects of being shot

[joe]

Despite the ".22 will just p*** your attacker off" there hasn't been a case of that yet . In fact it's the opposite ! Loads of cases where attackers with guns / knives have been shot and killed with .22lr pistol that the victim was carrying

A .22 will more than p1ss off your attacker if you place the shots correctly..standard engagement / failure to stop drill: after all it WILL be close range!

Anyway, the whole ethos is to "stop the threat" not kill someone....dying is one of a number of side effects of being shot

Yes correct . A high velocity.22lr even from a small pistol penetrates 12 inches into a gel block which is the consideried the minimum penetration required of any caliber to be suitable for defence

[bradaz11]

plus i'd like to think the low recoil would make for higher chances of keyholeing your shots, wish would open the hole out in itself.

would you rather get shot somewhere randomly on your body with one 45acp or five .22's? in the same spot.

[dromia]

.44 cap and ball revolver.

Those soft round balls over 40 gns of FFFg going at around 1000 fps were supposed to be real stoppers.

[breacher]

Joe, Please tell me more about how "stopping power is a myth" please.

Because I can assure you it is NOT a myth.

A FMJ round hitting a human body will very often pass straight through causing relatively minor injury ( look at the recent shooting of a Police officer where it passed straight through his shoulder )

The same calibre projectile, of the same weight and fired at the same velocity will, if it is soft point / expanding, dump a lot of its energy into the human body it hits. Further, it often yaws hitting organs a through and through would have missed.

"Stopping power" is just another name for "transferring the energy of the projectile into the target it hits".

[breacher]

One thing that a lot of the "let me carry for self defence" guys forget is the fact that its easy to shoot paper targets. Not everybody is capable of taking human life. Some do it without a second thought. Some will hesitate before doing it - depending on the proximity of the threat, this hesitation may or may not be an issue. Some just cannot do it.

Hell, I have met some target shooters who became a bundle of nerves when offered a deer to shoot.

And all of this is before you take into account andrenalin and stress of a sitation that you are not used to encountering.

You will never know for sure until you actually find yourself in the situation.

[ordnance]

Joe, Please tell me more about how "stopping power is a myth" please.

Because I can assure you it is NOT a myth.

A FMJ round hitting a human body will very often pass straight through causing relatively minor injury ( look at the recent shooting of a Police officer where it passed straight through his shoulder )

The same calibre projectile, of the same weight and fired at the same velocity will, if it is soft point / expanding, dump a lot of its energy into the human body it hits. Further, it often yaws hitting organs a through and through would have missed.

"Stopping power" is just another name for "transferring the energy of the projectile into the target it hits".

There are two myths in your post, one a bullet passing through will kill just as well as a a soft point both have to hit a vital structure in the body its all about shot placement. There are tens of thousands in their graves that have being hit with 9MM FMJ rounds. Two their is not enough energy in most commonly used handgun ammo for it to make any difference, regards energy transfer.

One thing that a lot of the "let me carry for self defence" guys forget is the fact that its easy to shoot paper targets. Not everybody is capable of taking human life.

I think if someone has broke your door down and is shooting at yourself and your family most people that were carrying a firearm for self defense would have no issue or hesitation shooting back.

[joe]

Joe, Please tell me more about how "stopping power is a myth" please.

Because I can assure you it is NOT a myth.

A FMJ round hitting a human body will very often pass straight through causing relatively minor injury ( look at the recent shooting of a Police officer where it passed straight through his shoulder )

The same calibre projectile, of the same weight and fired at the same velocity will, if it is soft point / expanding, dump a lot of its energy into the human body it hits. Further, it often yaws hitting organs a through and through would have missed.

"Stopping power" is just another name for "transferring the energy of the projectile into the target it hits".

As in the Kenetic energy of bullet to knock a man down bullshit ! A punch has more Kenetic energy then a 9mm !
The fbi report into wound belistics 1987 (which I've read) stated that stopping power, temporary wound cavity and hydrostatic? Shock are all myths when it comes to stopping an armed attacker ! It stated that what actually stops an attacker is wounding ie a bullet of suffiecent weight and size to penetrate deeply into the human body. This causes massive bleeding. A hit to cns and or heart are only ways to end an attack instantly
Bigger the bullet is better because it causes a bigger wounding channel and more chance of hitting an vital organ
Higher the Kenetic energy = better momentum = deeper penetration / more able to pass through bone and organ

That's the jist of the report

[breacher]

You are wrong.

A FMJ passing cleanly through will leave a tiny exit wound and minimal blood loss. Further, it will generate minimal blunt trauma.

A soft point passing cleanly through will leave a big exit wound and massive blood loss. Further, it will generate significant blood loss.

Ever wondered why this is brought up in the Hague convention ? Or the Deer Act ?

For example - a FMJ through the upper thigh is rarely fatal. A soft point in the same area is often fatal without prompt first aid at scene and hospital treatment asap.


Further you are wrong in your assertion that you need to hit a major organ to ensure lethality. If the correct projectile is used, it is lethal WITHOUT hitting major organs.

[joe]

You are wrong.

A FMJ passing cleanly through will leave a tiny exit wound and minimal blood loss. Further, it will generate minimal blunt trauma.

A soft point passing cleanly through will leave a big exit wound and massive blood loss. Further, it will generate significant blood loss.

Ever wondered why this is brought up in the Hague convention ? Or the Deer Act ?

That's what the report said I'm not wound belistic tech just going by what the report said
But one thing is true if a bullet had the Kenetic energy alone to drop a man then the shooter would also be dropped as well (newtons laws on physics for every action there is a equal opposite reaction)