The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

People are having good success with lead bullets at those 2500 + velocities high velocity alloys are easy to make if you already make lead bullets.

When I shot 303 at 1000 yrds plus with lead I gave up some velocity by using a heavier bullet.

My averages were always better with the lead loads than the jacketed, loading procedures are are not really much different than jacketed for good accuracy. Attention to detail, consistency, good bullet quality and fit are the keys.

Sorry to hear you had a duff 45-120.

I have been shooting lead pretty much exclusively for nearly 20 years in dozens of different rifles and calibres out to 1000 yrds without any fouling problems.

My 45-120 is far from duff !

Regarding velocity issues with lead alloy boolits; I have chronographed some of my .308 Win rounds using a 170gr cast boolit at 2600fps - nothing special about that - The bore of the rifle remained as spotless as when I started with it clean and shiny.
I have read of .223 rounds with cast boolits being driven successfully at 3500fps although I personally have no done it (no need to really).

dodgyrog wrote:Regarding velocity issues with lead alloy boolits; I have chronographed some of my .308 Win rounds using a 170gr cast boolit at 2600fps - nothing special about that - The bore of the rifle remained as spotless as when I started with it clean and shiny.
I have read of .223 rounds with cast boolits being driven successfully at 3500fps although I personally have no done it (no need to really).

What's the BC on those 170g bullets ?

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

I too have seen things. I witnessed a chap successfully launch a moderator off the end of his rifle. It sailed through the air, in a perfect arc, for about 75 meters before landing with a very satisfying THUD in the soft earth. I have seen bullets just peeping out of barrels having run out of p**f and not made the final centimeter. I have heard the cry go up from the firing point “ANYONE GOT A HAMMER”. I have also watched a chronograph suddenly turn into lots of little pieces (too my shame I must hold my hand up to that one….it was me !!!) All the above happened in the pursuit of the perfect subsonic round.

You don’t mention how many subsonic rounds you have made in the past.

Over the last couple of years I have made at least a 1000 subies using both lead and jacketed bullets, bullets loaded the wrong way round, bullets lubricated with all manner of strange substances, small capacity brass cases, cases with flash holes drilled out, cases not drilled, magnum primers, normal primers, fast pistol powders and trailboss (have I missed anything?)

Things I have learned.
On leaving the barrel a subsonic bullet drops like a stone. I can repeatedly hit a target at 450 meters but I need 21 mil of elevation to do this. This is my maximum range achieved with subsonic rounds. My main interest is targets between 25 and 100 meters.
A fast twist barrel. My AI has a 1-10 inch to stabilise heavy bullets. Seems to work better than a mates 1-12.
Cold bore shots are different to warm shots. Atmospheric conditions and altitude make a difference when working near 340 meters per second. I now load to 327 mps which works for my rifle and cold bore (1st round) shots.
Never shoot through a mod until you are sure all is stable.
Never use fillers to bulk up your load.
Always use a chronograph when developing a load. If not for the data then they make damn good targets!!
The most important and safest thing to do when developing a subsonic load is to remove the bolt from the rifle and LOOK down the bore after EVERY shot.

My AI now sounds like an air rifle but can smite at target at 100 meters with deadly accuracy!

Have fun. I do.

tackb wrote:

dodgyrog wrote:Regarding velocity issues with lead alloy boolits; I have chronographed some of my .308 Win rounds using a 170gr cast boolit at 2600fps - nothing special about that - The bore of the rifle remained as spotless as when I started with it clean and shiny.
I have read of .223 rounds with cast boolits being driven successfully at 3500fps although I personally have no done it (no need to really).

What's the BC on those 170g bullets ?

Not a clue!
Nice pointy things ok up to 600 yards but generally plinking at 200 yards.

I also load 115gr flat nose boolits with 4gr Viht 310 for plinking at 25 yards - they group very nicely, thank you. I expect that putting the load up to 5gr 310 would give me round good for 100 yards (or more)

and that's my point , if cast could cut it against jacketed it would be winning the major comps !

it's fun (I don't have time for it) but to say it is better than using jacketed in a modern centre fire rifle is misguided at best.

but it's fun and economical so have at it boys !

tackb wrote:and that's my point , if cast could cut it against jacketed it would be winning the major comps !

it's fun (I don't have time for it) but to say it is better than using jacketed in a modern centre fire rifle is misguided at best.

but it's fun and economical so have at it boys !

You have misinterpreted me (on purpose?).
I was quoting velocity achieved as an example. For long range accuracy I would use a cast 200gr boolit, probably 311299, which shoots very nicely indeed.
I don't want to throw 25% of my lead down range unnecessarily at shorter ranges when lighter boolits work very well.
Anyway, I wouldn't be shooting subsonic rounds at more than 100 yards as the wind effect on the boolit would cause too great a group size.

and have you won any 'f' class trophy's with 311299 ? or any other major trophy's with cast (against jacketed) at that ?

drop is what it is and windage is as well , as long as you know your velocity and BC you can compensate , simple. I've shot subsonics to 300m , it's fun and surprisingly capable !

higher BC carries it's velocity better therefore reducing drop and windage at longer range , this is physics.

cast is great fun and very challenging but not better than jacketed performance.

Leave them to their ignorance Rodger if it isn't mainstream or hasn't worked instantly for them then it has no place.

I'm no competitive shooter but when I did shoot classics competitions regularly I used cast by choice unless the competition required you to use jacketed then I would collect the odd gong or two and as I said earlier my averages were better with cast.

For some reason cast is not popular in this country, probably because those of ignorance perpetrate the myth that cast bullets cannot be shot fast however in the US some people are doing amazing things competitively with cast bullets so yes they are successful in competition and in afar more varied and gun rich culture than the barren UK shooting scene.

Take no heed of anything I've said as obviously these jacketed bullet shooters know far more about cast than us oddities that shoot hundreds of rounds of cast bullets a week from 25yrds out to 600, longest range I visit nowadays, with velocity and accuracy and no leading, we are dismissed as liars.

So what would we know about it and why waste our time trying to share knowledge and encourage different ways of shooting when we are told our view has no substance.