Dorset PCC admits his force has lost control of FAC fees

[Sim G]

As I said, when you come from a position that every police officer is a corrupt oppressor of the public, whatever I say or do will make no difference at all.

[Sixshot6]

As I said, when you come from a position that every police officer is a corrupt oppressor of the public, whatever I say or do will make no difference at all.

I don't dispute you don't do a great job Sim and in the position with the guy with a Dead son, most of us would not have coped. However the Story Gaz cited about the poor gun handling of armed officers and evening beating a fella up when there was no need and even trying to lie, leaves a bad taste. Plus we know that NABIS (and the formely) ACPO have tried to screw us over. The fees and Brocock air cartridges were the tip of the iceberg sadly.

[Sim G]

We could caveat every profession exactly the same. How many newspapers sued successfully for lying? How many journalists jailed for corruption and illegal activity? How many British soldiers killed in revenge when staged photos of alleged brutality were published? Are all journalists liars? Police media and press officers tend to be ex-journalists. Set a rat to catch a rat I suppose.

Gaz hates coppers. He hates the institution of the police as well. He's expressed it enough and it doesn't matter what is said, he has his opinion. He's not impartial, he's not unbiased, he's been likened to a zealot on more than one occasion over the years, but that doesn't matter, he still wields his keyboard with his journalistic authority. And that is his right. It doesn't make him right though...

[artiglio]

We live in a world where we can't/don't want to pay for the best, as a result services that can be cut to the bone in the name of political expediency are. Billions will be poured into benefits/housing/health to support a political ideal of free movement, 1 in 60ish cars on the road are through motability , the list is endless.
We're all trying to live ( at one level or another) an unaffordable lifestyle. Generally things hold together and we're oblivious until we get burgled, have a friend or relative that needs expensive health care, become unemployed. Then we wake up and smell the coffee and get upset.
I was amazed at the pay a long serving police officer earns, which is reflected in the attitude and quality of newer recruits and morale within the force, in my dealings with the police they would like to do their job but their own activities are resricted by budget cuts and when they do get an offender charged often see the CPS refusing to take them to court, usua get out is that its not in public interest ( my response was " what about the vitims interest") but really its about keeping costs down and only prosecuting sure winners.
Gaz's referral to the Brazilian Electrician, yes there were mistakes made, by the police and the victim (menendez?) As usual either side has a defence, but in short at a very difficult time a stretched service did its best to protect us all and were derded by all when it went wrong.
Surely this should be balanced against the successes the police and security services have but we'll never know anything about.
We're happy to have people stand in the front line for us in all walks of life, when for whatever reason this goes wrong, investigations should be made and lessons learnt , truly bad apples dealt with, but in most cases acceptance that you can't get it 100% right all the time and support those on the front line, or why should we expect anyone to do it.
In the scheme of things ,some numpty trying to climb the ladder by climbing on the cost of firearm certification to progress his career as a PCC , is hardly important , but perfectly illustrates the way sociey siezes on trivia.
I would hazard a guess that it is impossible to run a firearms dept and all its attendant duties soley on the income from certificate income, certainly not to be able to turn round enquiires etc in a timely fashion, we'll be milked as much as possible for the foreseeable future.
I read a while back that dog bites etc run at around 200,000 a year, council dog wardens, dealing with fouling, signage etc,etc runs into £100+ million across the country as whole when all costs factored in, but being politically unfavourable these costs will always be met from the general purse rather than a dog licence. No outrage at this subsidy.

[Gaz]

As I said, when you come from a position that every police officer is a corrupt oppressor of the public, whatever I say or do will make no difference at all.

I know we've crossed swords about this before, Sim, and I know I was being pretty ranty back there. I don't think every individual copper is a corrupt oppressor of the public but I do think there's a strong them-and-us culture in the police. I think this is very unhealthy and I think a return to Peel's Principles would be the best solution. I also think a rise in junior police ranks' wages (happy people don't break the rules) and a much more beefed up IPCC would be a good thing, along with an end to PSDs investigating anything other than minor discip matters.

I also think a lot of journalists (most of the Mirror, half the Guardian, all the three-interns-and-a-dog left at the Telegraph) are incompetent gimps who need to be beaten round the head repeatedly to hammer some common sense into them, or a basic comprehension of the world outside of the internet.

But...

How many journalists jailed for corruption and illegal activity?

Three iirc: Andy Coulson, Greg Miskiw and Nev Thurlbeck. Two others pleaded guilty (Graham Johnson of the Mirror, Dan Evans of Mirror/NOTW), and one from the Sun's just been handed a suspended sentence for paying a cop for tipoffs.

Out of the NOTW's total editorial staff that's about 1% convicted of criminal conduct. In the cases of Coulson/Miskiw/Thurlbeck, they were all very senior men who kept their activities in a small clique because they knew it was wrong. From the Sun, that's one conviction out of an attempted 40 prosecutions. All of the others were either cleared or their trials abandoned when the police and CPS realised juries weren't letting the charges stick.

Weirdly enough, though courts have stated that hacking was far worse at the Mirror than the NOTW, nobody except Johnson (who now makes his living by selling ratty second-hand furniture and nude paintings) has ever faced a court.

[TomH]

We could caveat every profession exactly the same. How many newspapers sued successfully for lying? How many journalists jailed for corruption and illegal activity? How many British soldiers killed in revenge when staged photos of alleged brutality were published? Are all journalists liars? Police media and press officers tend to be ex-journalists. Set a rat to catch a rat I suppose.

Gaz hates coppers. He hates the institution of the police as well. He's expressed it enough and it doesn't matter what is said, he has his opinion. He's not impartial, he's not unbiased, he's been likened to a zealot on more than one occasion over the years, but that doesn't matter, he still wields his keyboard with his journalistic authority. And that is his right. It doesn't make him right though...

I think the average copper does a very good job considering the funding cut-backs and the fact that they're often in a no win situation. Sure, there are going to be mistakes and a few bad apples but these are often blown out of proportion in media hungry for sensation. "Copper does good job" doesn't make a good headline.

What I do find distrurbing is the actions of those higher up the tree in the police force such as the members of ACPO who seem to make political decisions that are not (or should not be) in their remit. Plus membership of common purpose I find incompatible with serving as a police officer. The law should be applied fairly and equally with no exceptions. Then we wouldn't get Rotherhams etc.

[Daniel11]

The thing about the Police, whatever your view on them is that they will naturally, as part of their job, have to deal with the worst people in society. I would challenge anyone to spend more than 5 or so years doing so and not become changed by it, to varying degrees. That is part of the reason why law abiding shooters have such trouble with the police: When to you the word 'gun' means someone you have seen shot, or someone you have arrested, it is hard to see Law Abiding shooters in a positive light.

I would say that personally, I feel most Police Officers as individuals do a hard job very well, but as an institution, it has become a law unto itself and acted in an illegal or corrupt manner all too often. A return to Policing with greater accountability to a community (A small community) is necessary.

[Mr_Logic]

A general observation.

There is a fixed pot of money. Half of it pays welfare and health. If you want more money for policing then you don't want as much welfare or health.

My take is that education, services (fire , police), transport and the military are far more important, so cut welfare and cut the NHS.

Otherwise how do you pay for the police force some would like?

[daman]

Got a response from Dorset to my question: "Given that the increase to £88 was agreed by central government on a full cost recovery basis, should you not be asking yourself why your force cannot meet that target for issuing a FAC?"

They say: "Full cost recovery will be achieved when a new national IT system which is being developed comes in which will change the application process from an predominantly paper based process to an electronic process. Currently due to the heavy administration of the licence applications, the force are required to subsidise this by around £250,000 per year. "

Their page here: http://www.dorset.pcc.police.uk/news-an ... gn/#qcom17

Not sure that I believe them still.

[nickb834]

You'd have to ask the question why South Wales published figures showing circa 80 quid to issue an FAC, and yet Dorset can't do it for that figure? The PCC is pinning all his hopes on an IT system - yet if he had half a brain he'd see that the variation in performance across all the UK forces is down to how they're managed locally and thus this materially affects the cost.

Do away with variations, give me a certificate that lets me purchase what I want when I want, with whatever ammo I deem necessary (with todays prices that's self policing anyway) - by all means keep notification of transfers - et voila, a fit for purpose licensing system that reduces the administration overhead.

Seeing as I'm shooting for the moon, repeal the 97 and 88 firearms acts and happy days......