The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Charlotte the flyer wrote:

dromia wrote:Man, you are really over thinking this.

All you need is a lump of soft lead over muzzle size, place it on the muzzle of a clean, lubed barrel and pound it in with a soft faced hammer. Once you have driven the lead in flush with the muzzle and there is a ring of lead to discard the push the slug through the barrel, feel for tight spots if any and then measure for effect.

Do you drive the slug muzzle to breech or do you take it out and drive it the other way? I want to do this to my Metford (still) but it's all witchcraft to me.

It's actually quite simple (probably simpler if you get the right balls for it), and I probably was 'over thinking it' - The process doesn't (well not for me anyway) feel right, i.e. ramming a lump of lead up the muzzle of your pride and joy...but I kept reminding myself that the rifle takes worse shocks every time it fires...

...good luck

Right, I'm going to try some of Rog's 316299 200 grn bootits - so with that decided I've been looking at powder, load and OAL...and have a few more questions...

I've had a good read of 'Harris' and 'Colonel Someoneornother', and have looked at the various forums on cast boolits, and there seems to be some good data in Lyman manual, and right here on the forum too.

In the Lyman manual it gives loads for a very similar boolit, using Unique, 2400, SR-4759, IMR-4227 and XMP-5744 (is that the same as Accurate 5744?) - looking at the burn rate of those powders, am I right in assuming that they wouldn't need any filler for safety reasons (as opposed to accuracy reasons)...?

I liked the sound of Harris's '16 grns of #2400' - It seems to meet my needs of being a safe and accurate load for a .303 shooting at 200 yards, but I'm getting a bit confused with powders (never looked at anything other than Viht) - Harris refers to it as 'Hercules' 2400...so as Alliant took over Hercules; does that mean that Alliant 2400 is the same thing? Also, in the Lyman manual it just says '2400', so again does that mean 'Alliant 2400'? - The reason I ask is that Alliant advertise it as a magnum pistol powder, with no mention of an alternative use as a cast boolit rifle powder.

I can get Alliant 2400 locally, but also like the sound of a Viht load posted by Dromia - So some specific questions to you sir if I may? -I like Viht powders but couldn't find any data...you suggested a while back that 19 to 26 grns of Viht N120 was a good load for .303
...the burn rate chart would suggest that it wouldn't need filler, but can you confirm that please? Also one of the things I liked about the sound of Harris's load was that it wasn't sensitive to position in the case...how's N120 for that, and are there any other reasons why you recommend it?

The other thing is OAL - The Lyman manual gives a specific OAL for a 314299 at 2.930"; but in some of what I've read, it says that for best results with .303 the boolit should just touch the lands; so would vary from rifle to rifle - I have some .303 cases drilled and tapped for my OAL gauge so should be able to measure it OK - So, is that correct, that the boolit should just touch the lands...??

Thanks in advance for any answers...and for your patience too Adam :cheers:

I am guessing you are directing theses questions directly at Adam.
But just my two pence worth on the subject.
I would all ways slug my bore and add two though to my boolit size but I have the moulds and resizing equipment to do that.
So ok you are going with Rog,s .316 200grain boolit.
So you have chosen your boolit good. You do not need any fillers forget fillers. Ok so moving on Cartridge over all length. Loading for military rifles is a totally different ball game for now forget cartridge over all length. I seat mine to just cover the lube grooves.
Powders Vitavouri N120 is fine.
Im sure Adam will keep you on the straight and narrow.

With those burning rate powders fillers are neither needed or desirable.

Alliant 2400 is Hercules 2400 as makes no difference.

I like N120 as it is a tad slower and good with the heavier boolits, I converted to Vihtavuori powders years ago because of a reliable supply which I can't get with US powders, any powder around the 2400 burning rate will serve.

Deburring the flash holes for these loads is well worth it to ensure consistent ignition I have found.

Ideally with cast bullets you should size to fit the freebore/throat as opposed to fitting groove, that is why an impact cast is always desirable when setting a rifle up for cast boolit shooting. However if all you have is bore groove diameters then 1-2 thou over groove is a good guestimate starting point.

However the boolit design you have chosen is a bore rider so that means you need to get two dimensions on it right, the long bore riding part has to be on bore diameter, you can check this by pushing one into the muzzle there should be a slight resistance and when removed the lands should have faintly marked the nose. Next the driving bands/body of the boolit should fit the freebore.

So ideally when the round is chambered the bore riding part should be well into and supported by the bore, the driving bands should be filling and just touching the freebore and the boolit should be seated about at least calibre depth into the case with1-2 thou neck tension.

If your bore riding part is too big for the bore and the boolit is seated too far into the case then you can either size down the nose or go to a different and more appropriate design like a loverin. If your bore riding part is too loose then slump is like to the detriment of of accuracy.

Bore riders can be very accurate boolits when properly fitted and allow for a heavier boolit design however there are two dimension ducks to line up to get them shooting well.

On oal's they are usually given in manuals as the SAAMI standard size usually to fit a magazine, if shooting single loaded then you have the luxury of an oal for best boolit fit which may be shorter or longer.

Alpha1 wrote:I am guessing you are directing theses questions directly at Adam.
But just my two pence worth on the subject.
I would all ways slug my bore and add two though to my boolit size but I have the moulds and resizing equipment to do that.
So ok you are going with Rog,s .316 200grain boolit.
So you have chosen your boolit good. You do not need any fillers forget fillers. Ok so moving on Cartridge over all length. Loading for military rifles is a totally different ball game for now forget cartridge over all length. I seat mine to just cover the lube grooves.
Powders Vitavouri N120 is fine.
Im sure Adam will keep you on the straight and narrow.

Obviously with having a 'resident expert' I'm hoping to hear from Adam - But your two pence worth, and more, is very much appreciated...

...I'm looking to sort a quick cast load for the Trafalgar (where, now looking at it, I may have to make some compromises with perfect accuracy); but looking beyond that, I'm thinking of switching to cast for a few rifles (would help preserve the barrel on my 1909 M96), and can see me getting the equipment I need to do it properly.

I've only just started to feel fully confident with standard reloading, so I'm happy to hear from anyone with experience, and also from other beginners as well...sometimes beginners can warn you of things that the experts take for granted.

And, as I like Viht powder, you're the confirming vote for N120

dromia wrote:With those burning rate powders fillers are neither needed or desirable.

Alliant 2400 is Hercules 2400 as makes no difference.

I like N120 as it is a tad slower and good with the heavier boolits, I converted to Vihtavuori powders years ago because of a reliable supply which I can't get with US powders, any powder around the 2400 burning rate will serve.

Deburring the flash holes for these loads is well worth it to ensure consistent ignition I have found.

Ideally with cast bullets you should size to fit the freebore/throat as opposed to fitting groove, that is why an impact cast is always desirable when setting a rifle up for cast boolit shooting. However if all you have is bore groove diameters then 1-2 thou over groove is a good guestimate starting point.

However the boolit design you have chosen is a bore rider so that means you need to get two dimensions on it right, the long bore riding part has to be on bore diameter, you can check this by pushing one into the muzzle there should be a slight resistance and when removed the lands should have faintly marked the nose. Next the driving bands/body of the boolit should fit the freebore.

So ideally when the round is chambered the bore riding part should be well into and supported by the bore, the driving bands should be filling and just touching the freebore and the boolit should be seated about at least calibre depth into the case with1-2 thou neck tension.

If your bore riding part is too big for the bore and the boolit is seated too far into the case then you can either size down the nose or go to a different and more appropriate design like a loverin. If your bore riding part is too loose then slump is like to the detriment of of accuracy.

Bore riders can be very accurate boolits when properly fitted and allow for a heavier boolit design however there are two dimension ducks to line up to get them shooting well.

On oal's they are usually given in manuals as the SAAMI standard size usually to fit a magazine, if shooting single loaded then you have the luxury of an oal for best boolit fit which may be shorter or longer.

Thanks for the detailed info - there's a bit of new terminology to this, but I think I'm understanding it...

...I've got more questions about boolit types and seating depths; but I'll hold back until I actually get some boolits to try, and see how they fit etc..

...my next questions are about neck tension - My current .303 die (RCBS) has a ball that leaves an inside neck measurement of .308, which is perfect for SMKs...but what's going to happen when I try to seat a .315 boolit in that?...How hard it the lead; will it bulge the neck or deform the boolit?...

...now I know you hate expander-balls, but if I remove it the measurement is even less - So, are there different balls/mandrills you can get for existing dies, or do I need a different NK sizing die entirely?...how do you get the right neck tension?

"M" type dies.

We have covered them on here before.

Well I can only apologise for not paying enough attention before razz

OK, I found the relevant threads; and it makes a lot of sense...I can see that getting your own 'spuds' made would be ideal (this cast loading business seems virtually bespoke)...in the mean time would a Lyman .303 British M die be suitable for a .315 boolit...being that the widest part would still only be .313...?

Well I can only apologise for not paying enough attention before razz

OK, I found the relevant threads; and it makes a lot of sense...I can see that getting your own 'spuds' made would be ideal (this cast loading business seems virtually bespoke)...in the mean time would a Lyman .303 British M die be suitable for a .315 boolit...being that the widest part would still only be .313...?

The Lyman M dies are excellent bits of kit. But before you splash out any money on one you really need to know your bore and grove diameter this will dictate which one you buy. I am fortunate in that I own a lathe so I am able to make my own spuds.

That's more or less what I've done - the tightest spot was the first 6" of the barrel (from the muzzle end), after that it pushed through easily...

...as I say my measurements (which, sorry, but I'm not 100% confident with) gave .308 on the rifling and .3125 in the groves...does that sound right to you...?

I have reread the thread I am looking for your measurements after slugging your bore if you are getting .312 then the .316 boolits are a tad large they will work but expanding your cases to take them could be a challenge with the M die you are looking at.

You need to move up North were all these black arts are practiced. I find that it all makes perfect sense after about four very large glasses of single malt. tongueout

Best to get a handful of the actual boolits and try for fit.

The nose needs to fit the bore and the driving bands need to fit the throat/freebore.

What are the inside and outside diameters of a case fired in that rifle?

Of course it is bespoke that is how you get the accuracy better than condoms. The flexibility of cast allows you get a level of quality and fit for a particular rifle than isn't possible with the limitations of mass produced condom bullets.

Applying condom bullet thinking to cast will rarely work.