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Mezzer wrote:

Gaz wrote:

hitchphil wrote:My kids have done the training, no mention of hearing protection, no mention of dont pick up a hot lump of copper if it lands next to you. nothing about what emergency messages mean (double long hooter etc) not much on where to loose your fingers in the mechanism. There was no mention of message numbers & meanings & there are no reminder posters or cards given out.

Erm. Surely this is basic health and safety info and job-critical information??

No wonder the marking is p*** - they're both deaf and clueless!

(seriously, how can you mark if you're not told what the standard messages mean?)

Gaz;

Agreed!

Under NO circumstances would I allow my kids to work (and lets be clear here, that is what they are doing) in those conditions and at such risk. The Health & Safety Executive would take a very dim view of the condition of the equipment that the markers have to work with. I expect that they would probably issue an Improvement Notice as a minimum to get things sorted.

But hey ... don't worry folks (at the NRA), it'll never happen .... until someone looses a finger, at which point you can all expect your membership fees to be spent on something other than a new set of decent frames i.e. legal fees and compensation. Oh .... and did I mention that you will probably be prevented from using the affected target frames until such time as they are changed out.

I'm aware that there is only so much cash in the pot at Bisley and how it's spent is all about priorities. However, the HSE's priorities are very different from those of the NRA's management. HSE exists to protect workers in the workplace and we should be in no doubt that these markers are exactly that. From what I saw in 2011, it is inevitable that an incident will take place in those butts. It's just a matter of time and such a shame because it is so easily avoided.

Mezzer (wearing my H&S hat)

1st point - I am cool with them working there they are sensible kids who tell me about dangers & ask for advice, .... & I trained them so they know what to do & not do with a frame! or hand above the mantlet! They wear plugs not ear phones.

2nd point - As far as I know since I shot from 19 err hump 88? it has never happened? so ALARP may argued that no hazard events over x years y targets z hrs of use is a pretty fine stat of safe?

3rd point - please for gods sake don't involve the HSE! Bisley is struggling to catch up & cope HSE will just ruin it for all.

My advice: say hello, get their name, make friends, offer to buy them lunch? say thanks, give them rests & you will get way better service.

Someone did have a serious finger accident when we used to have competitor marking and successfully sued the NRA. That was back in the 80s though.

I think the Short Siberia targets could break an arm or a leg if used carelessly - say if you get an appendage stuck between the moving parts. Didn't like marking on them at all.

However we are more likely to get squished by a lorry on the M3 on our way to Bisley (and yes that did nearly happen to me as I skidded up the Junction 3 sliproad on my bum when the front tyre of my then boyfriends motorbike blew out at 100mph!)

Oh and coffee gives you cancer sign01

Love

karen

I like the Siberia frames, but I'm tall and strong enough to able to control them -- a lot of 'professional' markers may not be. I have seen other shooters nearly follow the frame in both directions. They have a lot of inertia.

Karen and Hitchphil;

Interesting replies and opinions!

Phil:
Can I assume that this training you provided has been documented and is focussed on the issues identified during the risk assessment for the marker activity in the butts? These are basic HSE requirements and if they are not carried out (and documented) and an accident occurs .... the HSE will be in ... at which point the trouble really starts! This is not about keeping the HSE out because by allowing the marker's 'workplace' to degenerate and become unsafe, we automatically invite them in. Think about it!

Karen:
I'd have to ask what were you doing on the back seat of a motorbike at 100mph in a country with a max speed limit on public roads of 70mph. Your call of course but if you end up under a lorry as a consequence then you have no one to blame but yourself. That example and the 'coffee gives you cancer' quote may appear somewhat flippant when you consider we are talking about the safety of our markers - some of whom may be members kids. By all means let them take their own risks in life but we are not allowed by law to impose additional risk upon them in our workplace - hence the need to ensure the butts area and the equipment within is maintained and safe to use.

The $64 question is:- how would you like to spend a hard day in the butts in those conditions?

Keep your heads in the sand and your fingers crossed.

Mezzer

Mezzer wrote:!

Karen:
I'd have to ask what were you doing on the back seat of a motorbike at 100mph in a country with a max speed limit on public roads of 70mph. Your call of course but if you end up under a lorry as a consequence then you have no one to blame but yourself. That example and the 'coffee gives you cancer' quote may appear somewhat flippant when you consider we are talking about the safety of our markers - some of whom may be members kids. By all means let them take their own risks in life but we are not allowed by law to impose additional risk upon them in our workplace - hence the need to ensure the butts area and the equipment within is maintained and safe to use.

My point is that everything is dangerous if not used correctly and sometimes it's dangerous if it is used correctly. I too have concerns about the target frames (as I indicated) and would hope that markers are correctly briefed. If not then questions should be asked and the training changed.

100mph? Pah nothing - that idiot of an ex boyfriend once did 130mph down the M3 on a Sunday morning. No I didn't like it at all but it was that or stay at home as I didn't have any transport. The front tyre blow out incident was the last time I went on a motorbike - too scared after that! That was 30 years ago though . . .

Love

karen

ELECTRONIC TARGETS.......END OF......

It would be interesting to get an NRA official to comment on this.

targetman wrote:ELECTRONIC TARGETS.......END OF......

As someone who has considerable experience of the downsides to electronics, the entire rulebook needs to be rewritten first.

Gaz

There's some good stuff here folks, many thanks.

However

Please try and take into account that the thread reffers to NRA markers an dhow to improve their service. We use our own when we can, but the fact is that the NRA are providing and charging for a service that is patchy, good in some cases, and abominable in others.

The point of this is not to take away their responsibility for training, management, pay etc (By providing our own markers, electronic targets, tipping etc) but to suggest how the NRA might improve things.

And dont worry, the health and safety points wont get mentioned, I am just going to take out the main comments and pass them on, including positive and negative comments.

This is purely an answer to the question "Well what do you suggest"

Mind you, god knows how many markers you would have if you banned I pods, phones etc....totally logical of course

Charlie Muggins wrote:I like the Siberia frames, but I'm tall and strong enough to able to control them -- a lot of 'professional' markers may not be. I have seen other shooters nearly follow the frame in both directions. They have a lot of inertia.

My TR club switched to payed markers as some of our more senior members found the targets on Century getting too difficult to operate - We do still mark for ourselves however when we use Siberia, and no one has any problems with the targets...

...that said; getting the counterweight balance correct is important for both ease of use and safety - This goes for the targets on Century as well...From what I've seen (when we used to mark we used to tweak the balances ourselves) this is not well attended to, and something that the Butt Supervisors/Managers could improve immediately for little cost...