The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Maggot, I don't know where folks are getting the idea about there being shortages. Fair enough that for a couple of months after the Sandy Hook murders in Nov 2012 there was panic buying for a couple of months, but these days, well mate on Saturday I bought powder and bullets no problem, the shelves in that one shop looked pretty well stocked to me.

On the other hand, if it is a market that the yanks cannot supply, then its as good an incentive as ever for British shooters to say enough is enough and start looking elswhere and developing loads accordingly.

I don't think it's a case of a market the Yanks can't supply mate. There's Stuck there telling me that Bergers are double the price what they are here, why do you think that is? Me I think it's down to the freight costs, import/export costs, VAT and the folks selling them have to make some sort of profit on it or they'd go out of business, I don't think it's a case of the Yanks can't supply. Late or incomplete orders, again why? How long are they sitting in warehouses before they move, how long are customs holding on to them once they reach the UK, are loads being pilfered when sitting in storage.

Maggot I hear what you are saying mate, I just don't agree it's the Yanks that are holding UK shooters to ransom, I believe you are being held to ransom by your own people and your own bureaucracy. I guess it's just easier to blame the Yanks though. Hey just saying mate.

Blu

No Blu, I think you are probably right, I guess we have to vote with our feet.

Its Obama's fault really for causing a panic, the knock on effect here of course si we are all hoarding as well. You have to anyway with competitive disciplines to keep consistency and survive a season tesnews

Anyways....back on thread.....

Do they work for me...early days but I woudl say hell yes?

Not wire guided or anything silly but I shot a genuine .5moa vertical yesterday at 1000 with N140 doing a healthy 3060.

ES circa 25

Old brass so neck tensions a bit iffy to say the least, should be more consistent with younger brass (I know it will be as it goes).

The IMR load was a bit slower and not quite as good being about .75MOA at 1000, but there is room to tweak as the OAL was the same, but the load a bit slower. This is at least as good if not better (with no flyers) as the IMR/Hybrid load I had used in the euros. The N140 load is a lot better.

I could still adjust OAL or Load, given how the N140 load was going I may well plump for N140 as my default powder and develop the IMR load as a backup, or a main league load.

Why 2 loads? Becuase you never know what you will be able to get your mitts on these days!! tesnews

The nice thing is that we have a small band of F/TR shooters that train together (read rip the Pi55 constantly) and at least one of our number has a clue, so I get to test the loads where it matters, long range.

Shot at 3 and 6 last sunday with the same load, noticeably better (tighter) even in a howler than my 2156 load so I would say if you fancy a quality bullet without selling a kidney, give the HBC a try.

Then stop chasing the dragon and learn to read the wind, its the only way emrolleyes

On the bullet supply and cost issue, yes there are carriage and UK import / VAT additions to US prices. Before we do our usual British act of beating ourselves up though, remember US ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulation) regulations and the accompanying Orwellian US State Department export licensing scheme which adds substantially to the workload, time and of course costs given that US permits are VERY expensive in order to export almost any American firearm or ammunition product or component. In practice, it means that if you're an American manufacturer or dealer and you can sell all your product to your home market, you've got to be very either very stupid to export it to us, or (I'd like to think) very mindful of customer relations and the longterm view of keeping other markets open.

Products are available in the USA? Maybe, if you spend all your time checking local dealers and/or shooting forums. Even today, US forums are hosting posts that say things like 'So & so has VarGet in stock', then a day later saying 'Shouldn't have posted that - it caused a rush and the shelves are empty again!' If quality bullets are so widely available in the US now, how come three-quarters of Hornady's product lines are still shown as 'temporarily suspended' (so that the company can concentrate on maximising its production of those lines in greatest demand) or that Berger Bullets increased output by 45% in 2013 over 2012 and still ended the year with increase in its back-order situation? Berger is adding yet more bullet making capacity, so that sometime this year it will have doubled output over an 18 month period.

See:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s= ... mit=Search

As far as the Dyers go, I tested them around three years back when the Dyer family still made them and found the same as Maggot - they're very consistent. Although a VLD type with an aggressive secant ogive form, like Steve Thornton I didn't have any trouble getting them to shoot and having to play with jumps. My usual starting position of 15 thou' 'out' worked fine straight away in a 1-10 inch twist Broughton and I had some very good Diggle match results shooting them over a relatively mild N150 load producing ~2,910 fps. Steve used to have a lot of fun made at his expense by other GB F/TR team members over using 'cheap Aussie shrapnel', but since he came 12th overall F/TR ex around 200 in the F-Class World Championship at Raton last August and beat nearly all of the GB Berger users, this seems to have dried up for some reason or other!

Insofar as the Litz .30 155gn bullet review went which I co-wrote with Bryan, he looked solely at the BCs, drag related design factors, and ballistic efficiency. The most ballistically efficient bullet in its class may not shoot well in YOUR rifle for all sorts of reasons. There is an old saw - let the barrel tell you which bullets it likes. Precision in an individual rifle or barrel is quite distinct from the ballistic efficiency aspect although the latter may influence the former if it involves a VLD design form. So if your barrel much prefers say the Sierra MK over the HBC or vice versa, that has a greater influence on scores especially at short to mid ranges than even an apparently significant difference in BC values. That's one very important reason why the Bryan Litz designed 155.5gn Berger 'BT Fullbore' has been such a successful bullet, and the apparently more efficient 155gn Hybrid is selling nowhere near so well at the minute - the 155.5 is not only ballistically nearly top of the class but is a very tolerant easy to tune design that works well in most match barrel internal dimensions and twist rates while the Hybrid doesn't seem to be as easy to tune in this respect.

Laurie wrote:On the bullet supply and cost issue, yes there are carriage and UK import / VAT additions to US prices. Before we do our usual British act of beating ourselves up though, remember US ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulation) regulations and the accompanying Orwellian US State Department export licensing scheme which adds substantially to the workload, time and of course costs given that US permits are VERY expensive in order to export almost any American firearm or ammunition product or component. In practice, it means that if you're an American manufacturer or dealer and you can sell all your product to your home market, you've got to be very either very stupid to export it to us, or (I'd like to think) very mindful of customer relations and the longterm view of keeping other markets open.

Products are available in the USA? Maybe, if you spend all your time checking local dealers and/or shooting forums. Even today, US forums are hosting posts that say things like 'So & so has VarGet in stock', then a day later saying 'Shouldn't have posted that - it caused a rush and the shelves are empty again!' If quality bullets are so widely available in the US now, how come three-quarters of Hornady's product lines are still shown as 'temporarily suspended' (so that the company can concentrate on maximising its production of those lines in greatest demand) or that Berger Bullets increased output by 45% in 2013 over 2012 and still ended the year with increase in its back-order situation? Berger is adding yet more bullet making capacity, so that sometime this year it will have doubled output over an 18 month period.

See:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s= ... mit=Search

As far as the Dyers go, I tested them around three years back when the Dyer family still made them and found the same as Maggot - they're very consistent. Although a VLD type with an aggressive secant ogive form, like Steve Thornton I didn't have any trouble getting them to shoot and having to play with jumps. My usual starting position of 15 thou' 'out' worked fine straight away in a 1-10 inch twist Broughton and I had some very good Diggle match results shooting them over a relatively mild N150 load producing ~2,910 fps. Steve used to have a lot of fun made at his expense by other GB F/TR team members over using 'cheap Aussie shrapnel', but since he came 12th overall F/TR ex around 200 in the F-Class World Championship at Raton last August and beat nearly all of the GB Berger users, this seems to have dried up for some reason or other!

Insofar as the Litz .30 155gn bullet review went which I co-wrote with Bryan, he looked solely at the BCs, drag related design factors, and ballistic efficiency. The most ballistically efficient bullet in its class may not shoot well in YOUR rifle for all sorts of reasons. There is an old saw - let the barrel tell you which bullets it likes. Precision in an individual rifle or barrel is quite distinct from the ballistic efficiency aspect although the latter may influence the former if it involves a VLD design form. So if your barrel much prefers say the Sierra MK over the HBC or vice versa, that has a greater influence on scores especially at short to mid ranges than even an apparently significant difference in BC values. That's one very important reason why the Bryan Litz designed 155.5gn Berger 'BT Fullbore' has been such a successful bullet, and the apparently more efficient 155gn Hybrid is selling nowhere near so well at the minute - the 155.5 is not only ballistically nearly top of the class but is a very tolerant easy to tune design that works well in most match barrel internal dimensions and twist rates while the Hybrid doesn't seem to be as easy to tune in this respect.

Hi Laurie.....wish I had some HBCs at the Euros. I had a few shockers with the Hybrids, although as my technique becomes more consistent so does the load....funny that :cool2:

Yes, cost is part of the logic, FTR aint getting any cheaper and practice is more important than testing testing and more testing, so when I tweak a load now I try and test at 1000 anyway (conditions permitting).

I also use the 2156 and it has served me well out to 600 and goes ok at 1000, but it not as good as the Hybrid or the HBC.

My issue with the hybrid is it seems to get tipped easilly (I think it is marginal in bouncy weatehr from a 13" twist).

Now if I have a bad shot I know it, rather than being mystified as to how a lovely shot ended up in the 2 ring after the others had been 5s and Vs.

Brian does say it is marginal in a 13", but of the big 4 (155.5, hybrid, 2156 and dyer) the dyer seems best suited on paper to my barrel.

I use a Lilja 3 groove which Mik fitted as my first F/TR rifle. I was mystified as to why the thing went so quickly with apparently little coaxing....all down to the 3 grooves apparently.

Fascinating subject, really fascinating.

Thanks

Load testing with the HBCs today. I had to work up a load suitable for 1000yds. I was very pleased with the results. Found an accurate load that has the legs for the job. Next outing will be the proof of the pudding.
An interesting bit of gossip concerning Bergers and pricing. Brian Fox was told off for selling them too cheaply and was saying he may not stock them anymore. Sounds very price fixey to me. Good on foxy for sticking to his principles.