SGC 9mm - Catastorphic Failure - Almost lost an eye :(

[SloeginBill]

would agree with this, with one proviso, if the fault was a failure due to manufacturing defect ie metal fatigue, the problem is no one has seen an independent report as to the suspected cause,so no one can really feel safe with one of these rifles, its OK if its your rifle and you know its only had factory through it, but what if its second hand? this may have some knock on effect on all owners of this model, as resale may be problematical.

Absolutely. The most likely cause is a material/ manufacturing defect but having voided the warranty by choice it's doesn't matter. If you buy a car, don't service it for 50000 miles then take it to the garage with a blown engine you aren't likely to get a warranty replacement as you haven't followed the manufacturers requirements on service intervals. The engine may have blown at 50000 even if you have had serviced it as required but then the garage would not have been able to turn away your warranty claim on the ground of non conformity with its terms.
With regard to failure of a second hand gun, I would suggest that if the warranty is transferable ( I don't know if it is or not) and the second owner took it back without making a statement about having used home loads then the dealer / manufacturer would be none the wiser about the first owners ammunition usage and therefore have no reason not to honour any warranty due.

[honsu]

This has put me off getting in to reloading as I dont want to void a warrenty when I buy a new rifle.

A quick question if you go the legal rout and losse does this mean SGC could make a claim for there legal costs to be covered by you?
:flag5: zzzzom

Re. RELOADING
I've been making my own ammo for 30 years now - I HAD TO - as my first rifle was not one which anyone in the North-East had ammo in stock for (M1 Carbine) - don't think there was even any ammo in the UK for it at one stage...

As long as you use the published data, reloading is SAFE AS HOUSES !(I've never even had a primer blow when seating...and NEVER any squib loads)
...AND it's fun
...AND it lets you get the full potential out of your YOUR gun(s)

ALL makers have the same disclaimer in the manuals - or MOST of them do = same as some power tool manuals advise NOT to try to stop the moving parts of the machinery with your genitals - PURELY a get out clause for total idiots...USA being an ever so slightly litigious society now. they HAVE to say such things.
ALL the same big gun makers ALSO sell ammunition of their own make AND sell reloading components....some also make the machinery to load with!
SOME of the ammunition makers in the USA that operate on a commercial basis in the USA use, er, EXACTLY the same machines that you may end up buying to make you own ammo. EXACTLY. I've seen pics of some of the smaller makers with rows of Dillon machines set up to operate via hydraulic drive units & with PLC gadgets & sensors on to monitor each stage.

I get what your saying mate and I will at one point get in to reloading but more than likely with a second hand firearm or a rifle I have bought new but the warrenty has run out.
I agree with SloeginBill on this one.



:flag5: zzzzom

[Chuck]

Definitely interesting. Sale of Goods Act applies to every business in the UK (although as stated some think not and try to hide behind ambiguous signs) "Fit for purpose for which it was intended" i.e shooting and "reasonable expectation"..Was it reasonable to expect such a failure in a new gun..no.

Would it be possible to load a 9mm to such a pressure? No idea.

Clearly it was not fit for purpose or within reasonable expectations and so the liability is with the retailer who in turn should seek redress from the manufacturer (Sale of Goods Act re trade to trade does NOT apply - or maybe it does now.)

However, if the manufacturer said NO HOMELOADS and it broke when a homeload was or had been used - irrespective of whether it was a factory identical load or not - then the retailer has some leverage.....I would not have said anything about a homeload that's for sure.

Denying home loads were used is NOT an option;

It's only about 5 weeks old, got on March 1st, I've checked my reloading records and I've loaded 505 rounds with 245 still in the ammo safe so 271 rounds including the 16 factory this afternoon.

think twice before posting eh . Was that a NEW gun or second hand?

At any rate the retailer should fix this situation (he sold it) and deal with SGC or whoever..I am not sure IF SGC are the bad guys in this in terms of the complaint (from a legal point, morally is different)..... As someone said, we can only speculate.

One of the reasons a certain M16 platform semi auto shotgun was not made available here by me was lack of spares and crap factory service...IMO this left the DEALER liable if the gun broke and could not be fixed. It is not worth screwing anyones reputation over any gun no matter how much fun it might be.

Pity there seems to be no independent body (like in the motor trade e.g an engineer) who could assess the damage and report back on it...or is there....

Maybe best to restrict homeloads to those guns that do not matter and have no warranty?

honsu asked about expenses should a claim fail, yes quite possibly. IMO of course

[Sim G]

The thing is, if Jeff had never mentioned homeloads, Clarke still would have blamed the ammunition. Of that there is no doubt. I seem to recall that SGC only recommend S&B.

It's all moot anyway. Clarke will deny all liability. Jeff is out of pocket 1400 quid. Roger Bill's will no doubt also limit their side as much as possible....

This isn't about reloading or factory ammunition, this is about the integrity of one gun maker who already has to some, a doubtful character....

[ovenpaa]

So who has this rifle right now, is it back with the owner, the gunshop or the manufacturer, the most important thing right now is get it checked by a third party.

[Blu]

So who has this rifle right now, is it back with the owner, the gunshop or the manufacturer, the most important thing right now is get it checked by a third party.

That is what I suggested at the start of this thread. The thing is even if it had been the ammo, AR type firearms are designed to expend any energy from a failure down through the magazine well and not at the back of the rifle by the cocking handle. I had a similar incident with my Bushmaster, the round didn't chamber properly and the bolt did not close all the way but it closed enough that you wouldn't notice it. When the trigger was squeezed it was chambered enough to strike the primer and fire the round.

The result was the bottom of the magazine was blown out and the rounds inside the magazine tumbled out. The bolt body was fine but the bolt itself was trashed and had to be replaced. The bad ammo feed can be caused by a small bulge in the case which stops it feeding properly but the rifle will still fire if the bolt is closed enough.

Blu

[gungho]

The thing is even if it had been the ammo, AR type firearms are designed to expend any energy from a failure down through the magazine well and not at the back of the rifle by the cocking handle.

Would the lever release design have made this impossible, I dont know how the pure ARs do it??

[Blu]

The thing is even if it had been the ammo, AR type firearms are designed to expend any energy from a failure down through the magazine well and not at the back of the rifle by the cocking handle.

Would the lever release design have made this impossible, I dont know how the pure ARs do it??

I don't see why not, the internals can only go two ways the same as any firearm, forward and backwards.

Blu

[Chuck]

If home loads had not been mentioned then the fault / problem is with the dealer..HE sold it, his problem...he in turn takes it up with the manufacturer....and suffers any loss. customer has at face value been sold goods noty fit for purpose...but those damn home loads are the one point I would use if I was out to avoid a claim against me or any client..

As said earlier, if the factory ammo was to be blamed and the packaging was available, call the manufacturer and tell them..the home load issue is where all this is falling apart.

Now there appears to be some home loads left over so a few random samples of each could be tested by an independant and the aforementioned complaint made to the ammo maker...who would I am sure be keen to distance themselves from this...Devils advocate, how can you PROVE those are from the same batch or not made exra carefyully...see how messy this can get.

Looks like this will need to go legal for any results...and we have seen how that pans out on here already..Trading Standards for sure...

[meles meles]

Pity there seems to be no independent body (like in the motor trade e.g an engineer) who could assess the damage and report back on it...or is there....

Isn't this how the Proof Houses earn their crust ?