The Bill to restrict lead ammunition

[lapua338]

Why is lead ammunition, most of which is contained to some extent within a copper case and ends up in a controlled backstop, any greater risk to the environment than the umpteen square miles of lead roofs and flashings that adorn a majority of the uk’s buildings? Or wheel balancing weights? Leaded light windows?

You're missing the point. It's about control to further diminish civilian shooting in the UK and Europe.

[FredB]

Most ammo is NOT contained in a copper case! I haven't used any jacketed rounds since the 1980s. Most ammo, actually is .22 and the bullet is a lead / antimony ally.
Fred

[dromia]

I recall reading an article years ago about where this lead ban to protect bird life originated from.

Evidently in California there is an indigenous species of Condor which was dying out upon research into the cause it was from lead poisoning form shot in carrion.

This evidence was what started the lead ban crusade to save wildlife.

However the ban supporters have chosen to ignore the part of the report that said that the fatal consumption of lead into the Condors bodt was due to the fact that the Californian Condors gut produces a very corrosive stomach acid, which is only found in that species, and it was that intestinal soup that was breaking down the lead and causing the deaths by lead poisoning.

Not sure of the veracity of this report so would welcome any input as to its genuineness.

Regarding BASC I have never really been convinced by the research on lead poisoning in fowl, it has seemed to me an easy route of acquiescence rather than tackling what seems to me an anti gun/shooting attack masquerading as an wildfowl welfare issue.

[Triffid]

I think it's a more progression from the ban on lead shot used for angling in 1987, which was undoubtedly causing lead poisoning in wildfowl. Then followed the ban on using lead shot for wildfowling in 1999, shortly thereafter followed by leaded petrol being withdrawn in 2000. As far as I'm concerned all these were well-evidenced reactions to problems that lead was causing to human health and the environment. Same as why we stopped using DDT.

So the question is what evidence will the HSE/EA report provide on the risks associated with the remaining lead ammunition. To me it would be difficult to justify a ban on it's use in indoor ranges as things like ventilation and cleaning have evidently bought the risk down to minimal levels. The use of lead and lead-cored bullets on outdoor shooting ranges with sand-filled butts is more interesting, but again, I think it's controlled, unless there are drainage issues. But I think they will target the use of lead shot, particularly as alternatives have been developed since the 1999 wildfowling ban.

I studied lead on shooting ranges back in my post-grad days, but these were limited to it's direct impact on the range itself. I might arrange for a few samples to be taken downstream of an existing range to see what's happening in the drainage.

Triffid

[1066]

A little more information here:
Dave Froggett is an executive at the NSRA: Lord Kreb is one of the pushers for this proposed bill.

I asked Lord Krebs where he got his figures from and he pointed me to a report:

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/1 ... 1194-x.pdf

Reading this and digging a little deeper I found the following:

"They used data on lead concentrations in UK gamebirds, from which
gunshot had been removed following cooking to simulate
human exposure to lead (Pain et al. 2010 ), in combination
with UK national diet survey data and surveys of numbers
of high-level consumers of game meat and their levels of
consumption. They found that at least one million people in
the UK consume wild game at least once per year and
surveys indicate that at least tens of thousands of people
from the shooting community are high-level consumers of
wild-shot game. The mean frequency of consumption of
game meat by these high-level consumers may exceed one
game meat meal per week, averaged over a whole year. It
was estimated that thousands of children in the UK (calculated
to be in the range 4000–48 000) were at potential
risk of incurring a one point or more reduction in IQ as a
result of current levels of exposure to ammunition-derived
dietary lead."

Not quite what the good lord said, but why spoil a good soundbite?

So, on to Pain et al,
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... 0010315#s4

It appears that a total sample of 42 shot birds was used to reach this conclusion. Birds included were Red Grouse, Mallard, Partridge, Pheasant, Woodpigeon and Woodcock. Hardly a sample big enough to reach the conclusions they have.

The point for us is that nowhere is this linked with target shooting and I would suggest we need someone with scientific street cred to make this point continually when briefing ministers, the press, politicians et al. If we have a PR person then may I suggest 2 points for repeating:

1 The data refers only to lead used to shoot live animals for human consumption.

2. The data is anyway out of date (2010) and from too small a sample to be meaningful.



Best wishes

[Graham M]

I think that the lead in petrol was the main contributor to problems stemming from the 80s when violence on our streets began to get out of hand. It does make one wonder why the offspring of some of our inner city slobs are so stupid.

[GeeRam]

I think that the lead in petrol was the main contributor to problems stemming from the 80s when violence on our streets began to get out of hand. It does make one wonder why the offspring of some of our inner city slobs are so stupid.

Its laughable for that to be blamed on leaded petrol, but its typical of modern society looking for blame elsewhere other than itself.

[ukrifleman]

Is there anything that has been suggested as an alternative to lead? Silver bullets or gold maybe?

Roto Metals produce a lead-free bullet casting alloy which is very expensive.

A 1lb ingot costs £33, that would be enough to produce 46 150gn cast bullets at a unit cost of £0.76p.

Shooters of large bore muzzle loaders would have to win the lottery to be able afford this alternative.

ukrifleman

[1066]

Is there anything that has been suggested as an alternative to lead? Silver bullets or gold maybe?

Roto Metals produce a lead-free bullet casting alloy which is very expensive.

A 1lb ingot costs £33, that would be enough to produce 46 150gn cast bullets at a unit cost of £0.76p.

Shooters of large bore muzzle loaders would have to win the lottery to be able afford this alternative.

ukrifleman

And as clearly shows in the NSRA research - there's no substitute that compares with lead for accuracy in smallbore and air competitive shooting. We would be in the ridiculous position of our International competitors needing to travel abroad to practice with lead ammunition.

[Blackstuff]

Is there anything that has been suggested as an alternative to lead? Silver bullets or gold maybe?

Roto Metals produce a lead-free bullet casting alloy which is very expensive.

A 1lb ingot costs £33, that would be enough to produce 46 150gn cast bullets at a unit cost of £0.76p.

Shooters of large bore muzzle loaders would have to win the lottery to be able afford this alternative.

ukrifleman

And as clearly shows in the NSRA research - there's no substitute that compares with lead for accuracy in smallbore and air competitive shooting. We would be in the ridiculous position of our International competitors needing to travel abroad to practice with lead ammunition.

You mean like with the Olympic handgun squad? Or alternatively locked in a strong room with armed guards outside in case they ran amok with their single shot .22lr target pistols....