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MrD wrote:Further to my last, I noticed you said you used the same powder in your .36 and it had worked. So, for fun I dug out the club 1858 and loaded it with 30gn (by vol) of Pyrodex P. I rammed a .454 ball a bit harder than I would normally do without any wad, and I would doubt that I could fit another ball in without it fouling on the cone, let alone a ball and a half.
Donald

I'll have a proper look when I next go to the range - it's possible I'm 'misremembering'.

Sim G wrote: First question, when aiming ridiculously high to hit the target, what sort of groups are you actually getting?

And I will chuck in at this stage, if you can use Triple 7, why not Pyrodex? I understand that some indoor ranges don't allow BP and only the substitutes, but seems odd that one of the substitutes is also excluded...

Between 3 and four inches.

I seem to recall the reason was Pyrodex is just too hard on the nose, throat, and lungs.

1066 wrote:... Although the balls are a good fit in the chamber with a ring of lead being shaved off, does this make them too small for the barrel? Need to slug the bore.

I slugged the bore - .446" I also measured the balls which purport to be .454" but on average actually measure .450" so a difference of .004"

Perhaps that's not giving a tight enough fit. What's the usual ratio bore / lead ball ?

Dark Skies wrote: I slugged the bore - .446" I also measured the balls which purport to be .454" but on average actually measure .450" so a difference of .004"

Perhaps that's not giving a tight enough fit. What's the usual ratio bore / lead ball ?

My .454 balls come out roughly similar, maybe a couple of thou larger if I had measured enough. However, when I measured the ball I drove out of the cylinder, the 'shaved' band gave a diameter of .4467, so I don't suppose the initial measurement of the ball is as important as the 'shaved' diameter. I haven't slugged the barrel so I have no idea if that would come out the same as yours. If I get time tomorrow when I get home I'll have a go and let you know.

Donald

Dark Skies wrote: Between 3 and four inches.

And there is your answer...... there is nothing wrong with your revolver. At 20 yards, with Triple 7 an a relatively new muzzle loading revolver shooter, the performance, accuracy wise, is exactly what would be expected, three to four inches. Quite frankly, slugging this, slugging that, weighing this, weighing that is really over thinking a "problem" that isn't actually there.

Pietta is a good quality, well made gun. Their Competition models command the prices they do because they are some of the best revolvers out their and their standard range is no slouch either.

Your revolver is shooting low because the sights have not been "regulated" to your chosen load. When the gun leaves the factory, it does so with a very tall front sight and that is what causes the revolver to shoot very low. It is very tall because the idea is that you will file down the front sight to raise the point of impact according to your chosen load. Pietta cannot regulate the sights for what they think you will use. Having such a sight allows for the adjusting for the plethora of developed loads with each shooter that there could possibly be. It is that simple....

On the subject of loads, don't expect too much from Triple 7 in the accuracy dept anyway. You are actually getting good results with that now, believe it or not. The best accuracy will need proper black powder, and I have found consistently that Pyridex as a propellant if a substitute has to be used, no matter what revolver, will give far better accuracy that Triple 7. One thing I will say about Triple 7 is that you really must stay with Hodgdons recipes or you risk dangerous pressure spikes. At 30gns by volume you are already five grains over their maximum load. Likewise, you should not use fillers with Triple 7, except the one Ox-Yoke wad. Pryrodex is a different fish in that regard.

You need to take a file to the sight.

From the first post, the only problem with filing the foresight is he says he is already sighting using the very bottom of the foresight in the V and aiming at a roof beam.

Bearing in mind also, for precision target shooting, it's usual to take a " 6 o'clock" hold, well down in the white. I guess my target pistols shoot 6" above point of aim at 25 yards.

Assuming a 9" sight radius the quoted 3' correction would need .45" of sight adjustment, that seems excessive.

David

I've bought some .457 balls which I will shoot with my usual charge - it's possible the fit of my current .454 ball isn't getting a tight enough seal in the barrel and gas is flowing past. It may be that one factor does the trick.

I'm not altogether convinced, as Sim G asserts, that my load is already 5 gr x volume over the manufacturer's recommendation. If I give a slight tap of the measure when filled the powder settles by almost 5 gr - so it may be more accurate that I am right on the limit of Hodgdon's chart.
Having said that I'll try dropping the charge by 5 gr x volume and see if it has any affect one way or t'other - it may be that there's no noticeable difference in which case at least I can squeeze more bangs per tub of propellant.

I'm also going to try making my own lubed wads - but slightly thicker - to act as a slight filler - it'll probably make no odds but I can't see it doing any harm. I might try double-stacking a couple to see if there's anything in the ball having less distance between cylinder and forcing cone.

Sim G wrote:

Dark Skies wrote: Between 3 and four inches.

And there is your answer...... there is nothing wrong with your revolver. At 20 yards, with Triple 7 an a relatively new muzzle loading revolver shooter, the performance, accuracy wise, is exactly what would be expected, three to four inches. Quite frankly, slugging this, slugging that, weighing this, weighing that is really over thinking a "problem" that isn't actually there.

Pietta is a good quality, well made gun. Their Competition models command the prices they do because they are some of the best revolvers out their and their standard range is no slouch either.

Your revolver is shooting low because the sights have not been "regulated" to your chosen load. When the gun leaves the factory, it does so with a very tall front sight and that is what causes the revolver to shoot very low. It is very tall because the idea is that you will file down the front sight to raise the point of impact according to your chosen load. Pietta cannot regulate the sights for what they think you will use. Having such a sight allows for the adjusting for the plethora of developed loads with each shooter that there could possibly be. It is that simple....

On the subject of loads, don't expect too much from Triple 7 in the accuracy dept anyway. You are actually getting good results with that now, believe it or not. The best accuracy will need proper black powder, and I have found consistently that Pyridex as a propellant if a substitute has to be used, no matter what revolver, will give far better accuracy that Triple 7. One thing I will say about Triple 7 is that you really must stay with Hodgdons recipes or you risk dangerous pressure spikes. At 30gns by volume you are already five grains over their maximum load. Likewise, you should not use fillers with Triple 7, except the one Ox-Yoke wad. Pryrodex is a different fish in that regard.

You need to take a file to the sight.

Now that makes sense

Dellboy wrote:

Sim G wrote:

Dark Skies wrote: Between 3 and four inches.

And there is your answer...... there is nothing wrong with your revolver. At 20 yards, with Triple 7 an a relatively new muzzle loading revolver shooter, the performance, accuracy wise, is exactly what would be expected, three to four inches. Quite frankly, slugging this, slugging that, weighing this, weighing that is really over thinking a "problem" that isn't actually there.

Pietta is a good quality, well made gun. Their Competition models command the prices they do because they are some of the best revolvers out their and their standard range is no slouch either.

Your revolver is shooting low because the sights have not been "regulated" to your chosen load. When the gun leaves the factory, it does so with a very tall front sight and that is what causes the revolver to shoot very low. It is very tall because the idea is that you will file down the front sight to raise the point of impact according to your chosen load. Pietta cannot regulate the sights for what they think you will use. Having such a sight allows for the adjusting for the plethora of developed loads with each shooter that there could possibly be. It is that simple....

On the subject of loads, don't expect too much from Triple 7 in the accuracy dept anyway. You are actually getting good results with that now, believe it or not. The best accuracy will need proper black powder, and I have found consistently that Pyridex as a propellant if a substitute has to be used, no matter what revolver, will give far better accuracy that Triple 7. One thing I will say about Triple 7 is that you really must stay with Hodgdons recipes or you risk dangerous pressure spikes. At 30gns by volume you are already five grains over their maximum load. Likewise, you should not use fillers with Triple 7, except the one Ox-Yoke wad. Pryrodex is a different fish in that regard.

You need to take a file to the sight.

Now that makes sense

It WOULD - if I wasn't already sighting up the V of the rear sight groove with the very base of the foresight where it meets the barrel.

I guess I could try Pyrodex during one of the exclusive muzzle-loaders mornings - and see if anyone creates during the fug of five lane's worth of shooting.

Dark Skies wrote: I'm not altogether convinced, as Sim G asserts, that my load is already 5 gr x volume over the manufacturer's recommendation. If I give a slight tap of the measure when filled the powder settles by almost 5 gr - so it may be more accurate that I am right on the limit of Hodgdon's chart.
Having said that I'll try dropping the charge by 5 gr x volume and see if it has any affect one way or t'other - it may be that there's no noticeable difference in which case at least I can squeeze more bangs per tub of propellant.

Sim G is correct. If you check the data sheet https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uplo ... l_2008.pdf they give just two loads for your revolver, 20gn and 25gn. I'm sure their site used to have a warning about deviating from the stated load and to avoid any filler with Triple 7, but I can't find that on their site now so maybe things have changed.

Using a .457 ball will just shave more off, as ramming it into the cylinder effectively sizes it to the cylinder's diameter.

I'd suggest trying a Pyrodex P or BP load of the volume which others have stated, with either a wad or filler so that you lightly compress the charge when seating the ball. I prefer to seat the ball just below the cylinder so as not to foul when it is rotated. I know others who seat it deeper and it still works. There is no need to ram it in as tightly as possible. From what you said earlier about fitting an extra ball and a half in, perhaps you are compressing the powder way too much. I don't know if this would generate the results you are seeing. I have found a 15gn BP or Pyrodex load shoots as accurately as 20-30gn at 25 yds. More powder gives a different point of impact with more smoke and a bigger bang but no better accuracy.

I know people who shoot cap and ball revolvers well past the first flush of youth and don't get a crazy trajectory. I think your load or loading is the issue rather than a fault with the gun.

Good luck with getting this sorted

Donald