The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Andy632 wrote:

snayperskaya wrote:

meles meles wrote:

Heads is where you go to take a leak...

Is that just a USN term or is it also used in the Royal Navy?.....

Did you know it is called a "head" because in the early Navy days the toilet was located at the front of a ship right at the bow, also called the Head, and the action of the waves helped to clear it out.

Yeah but in later days it was moved to the back end, what became the 'Poop' deck, the sailor had had enough of 'Peeing into the wind' by then!

Errr....no, the name "poop deck" originates from the French word for stern, la poupe, from the Latin puppis.Thus the poop deck is technically a stern deck.On modern ships the functions that would have been carried out on the poop deck were moved to the bridge.

Surely with a 240g head your going to need a fast twist ?

tackb wrote:Surely with a 240g head your going to need a fast twist ?

Oh no, stickers, no ! We'll need a nice, slow, progressive twist. Too fast a twist would be a problem: brass only has a relatively low shear stress and we don't want to rupture the head and cause it to separate from the rest of the case when we extract it.

meles meles wrote:

tackb wrote:Surely with a 240g head your going to need a fast twist ?

Oh no, stickers, no ! We'll need a nice, slow, progressive twist. Too fast a twist would be a problem: brass only has a relatively low shear stress and we don't want to rupture the head and cause it to separate from the rest of the case when we extract it.

I use Privvi 146g bullets on top of 40g Tubal 300 up to 900 yards though my 30 year old 7.62 Swing target rifle with original barrel.
I haven't hit the target yet but I keep trying.
Only joking, this combination shoots well for me but 155g Lapua Scenars are even better.

As always, it depends on the size of target, likely wind conditions, precision that the rifle / shooter combination is capable of attaining, and desired precision balancing all these against cost. No sense in paying £50 + / 100 for Berger Hybrids if the rifle can't make best use of them and/or staying in the black, or at least the 4-MOA dia. '4-ring' of the standard NRA target is 'good enough'.

At 600 yards, F-Class competitors still need as high a BC bullet as they can get subject to their grouping well thanks to the small ring size - the 6-inches '5-ring' only the size of a small teaplate, the 3-inch diameter 'V' smaller than a saucer. Unless a very windy range, 600 yard external ballistics are less important especially on the NRA target than for the 800 yards plus shooter - group is everything. So the answer basically is whatever shoots best in your rifle subject to costs - and that makes a large range of older model bullets available. The antediluvian 168gn Sierra MK is still a fine bullet for general target work at this distance, likewise the somewhat more modern but still 'old hat' 155gn (p/n 2155) original 'Palma' MK since superseded by the higher BC but more expensive and finicky p/n 2156 not to mention the acetate tip TMK models now appearing. The old 175gn SMK still loaded in US military sniper rounds is also an excellent general purpose mid-range .30 match bullet.

The B-series Lapua Lock-Base FMJBTs in 150 and 170gn weights have now largely disappeared, but worked well for many. The 155 Scenar performs well in many chambers / barrels despite being a rather aggressive secant-ogive design. The 167 Scenar is like the 168gn SMK a tolerant tangent ogive but low-BC job that can deliver outstanding short and mid-range results. The Berger 155.5gn BT Fullbore is an outstanding performer at all distances and for all purposes - but is far more expensive than most of its competitors from other producers.

Then there are the Hornady models, 168gn HPBT match, AMAXs, apparently being replaced by more expensive EL-D models ..... and so on, and so forth. A huge choice of makes, models and weights. Just (Ha! Just! :) ) find one that works very well in your rifle and loading.

Finally, if general 'just stay in the black' performance is good enough, don't handload. GGG 7.62 has a good reputation by milspec ammo standards and is cheaper than handloading these days even with rubbish 147gn FMJBT military type bullets.

No mention of 240g lead heads Laurie , you might be missing a trick along with all the other f class competitors ? What rifling twist do you think would be required to stabilise a 240g lead head at about 2100-2200 fps ?

Probably not that tight a twist compared to say a 230gn .30 Berger Hybrid. First, pure lead is denser than a lead core + brass jacket combination, so even if the bullet shapes were the same, the all lead design would be shorter - and it's mostly length in conjunction with calibre that determines twist rate for stabilisation.

Second, I'm assuming the cast lead bullet is round-nosed or at the very least pretty blunt compared to any jacketed design. That also reduces the OAL for its weight.

Third, I'd also assume it's flat based, not boat-tailed. FB bullets use a very different set of stabilisation equations to BT models. As a rule of thumb, knock one full inch of twist off what is required for the same length + weight BT equivalent.

So, without knowing the bullet's actual length, I'd guesstimate it'd work fine in the SAAMI standard 1 turn in 12-inches pitch.

No .... at slight risk of upsetting Dromia, I don't think I'm missing a trick re not using 240gn cast lead bullets in 308 Win FTR! I've read and reared Paul Matthews books on shooting the 45-70 and later for casting top quality bullets for L-R BPCR competition and it's a fascinating subject - full of praise for the guys who really make them work, but not for me or F-Class I believe!

You are right Laurie probably not at the moment but I suspect that is just a function of not enough people working on the development.

Things really have moved on a pace since Paul Mathews day. There are a few dedicated cast bullet shooters however that are driving 30 calibre bullets at over 2,500fps with repeatable sub minute of accuracy, using bespoke bench guns. I suspect that if there was a much research resources and time put into developing cast bullet design and loading then cast could well be knocking on the door of jacketed in regards the accuracy events. Finding good shooters who are good casters and cast bullet handloaders who understand the theory and practice and have the time and resources to work it through and record and share it is the key.

I like to think that in some small way I have done my little bit to contribute. In my day I was able to shoot my "discipline" of Historic target shooting out to 1000 yrds where my cast loaded bullets would significantly reduce my averages over jacketed loads and factory. I never got into F class or bench rest as old age has overtaken me as failing eyes, crippled hands and shoulders means my days of development are over but there are others taking it forward with success and sharing the knowledge. I was on the cusp a few years ago of having a bespoke cast bullet bench gun made but as things were noticeably deteriorating with my shooting I decided not to take it forward as I would no longer be in a state to make the best of such a rifle.

The more people that take up the challenge the further cast bullets will go, at the end of the day cast and jacketed are very different creatures and have each their own strengths and weaknesses and at the cutting edge of long distance accuracy shooting jacketed is currently still ahead of cast however for the vast majority of shooters cast is still a viable option that will give up nothing in accuracy and with knowledge and understanding, velocity out to 600 yards.

It takes more effort than jacketed but the personal rewards are proportionally greater when consistently repeatable results are achieved.

How about these, possibly the best made bullet I've ever bought. Sorry for the bad pic