'New' firearms transfer/purchase method

[dromia]

So where does the face to face bit fit in all this then?

[bigfathairybiker]

Hmmm...

When the seller gives the gun to an RFD to ship, they have "transferred" it to the RFD.
Then the first RFD "transfers" it to the 2nd RFD, who "transfers" it to the buyer.
No more complicated than that.

Face to face, Seller enters details on buyers licence.

I cannot see any changes at all.
I believe that a lot of people try really hard to read something else into simple legislation.
As far as I am concerned legal wording must be read very literately and not added to by your own thoughts.

Mark

[dromia]

So entering it onto the ticket doesn't transfer it?

[Mattnall]

So in simple terms if an RFD sells a firearm directly to a customer he will enter the details on the recipients FAC regardless of of the transaction is local or remote, however if he is accepting the firearm in as transfer for a third party then he need only complete his own register details.

I do wonder if RFD's will ever formally be advised of this change...

That's how I see it should happen but I don't think it is a change. When I first started dealing this is how my local police wanted/preferred it doing but wouldn't kick up a fuss if it was the other way.
I think it is now just been laid out in stone which method is the preferred.

Those that think selling a firearm to another, remote, FAC holder and giving it to the RFD to ship is 'transferring it' to that RFD may have another think coming. The wording 'original owner' is fairly straight forward and the RFD may transfer it on paper but isn't or never has any legal ownership, just temporary possession.

[bigfathairybiker]

I've just emailed the BASC Firearms enquiries dept for clarification.
Hopefully I may get an answer early next week.

Then again, they may only give their own interpretation of it!

In the mean time... do RFD's have to do any firearms "transfer" paperwork with the courier?
I ask because the courier would be in "possession" on an unlicensed firearm!

Mark

[Swamp Donkey]

I don't think 'legal owner' makes a difference. You don't need to be a legal owner to have a gun on your ticket, it's 'possession' that's the important part. It needs to be 'on ticket' to be able to possess, legal owner or not. As far as Licencing is concerned, it makes not a jot of difference who owns it, just who is in possession.

I sell a gun to 'Mr X'
He pays me, and is the legal owner, but all the while it's in my possession, I am responsible for it, and it needs to stay entered on my fac until I 'transfer' the possession of it to my RFD. It can now come off my fac as I'm no longer in possession, the RFD is, who then sends it to Mr X's RFD, who takes possession of it, Mr X then picks up his gun from his RFD, who transfers the possession over to Mr X.

Legal owner, and legal ownership, are different.

Legal owner retains the title to the goods, but they may not be in his/her possession.

Legal ownership means being in possession of the goods, in line with relevant laws pertaining to them, ie, being entered upon an fac, or on RFD's books.

[Swamp Donkey]

I've just emailed the BASC Firearms enquiries dept for clarification.
Hopefully I may get an answer early next week.

Then again, they may only give their own interpretation of it!

In the mean time... do RFD's have to do any firearms "transfer" paperwork with the courier?
I ask because the courier would be in "possession" on an unlicensed firearm!

Mark

Approved carriers are exempt from Licencing

[Mattnall]

I don't think 'legal owner' makes a difference. You don't need to be a legal owner to have a gun on your ticket, it's 'possession' that's the important part. It needs to be 'on ticket' to be able to possess, legal owner or not. As far as Licencing is concerned, it makes not a jot of difference who owns it, just who is in possession.

I sell a gun to 'Mr X'
He pays me, and is the legal owner, but all the while it's in my possession, I am responsible for it, and it needs to stay entered on my fac until I 'transfer' the possession of it to my RFD. It can now come off my fac as I'm no longer in possession, the RFD is, who then sends it to Mr X's RFD, who takes possession of it, Mr X then picks up his gun from his RFD, who transfers the possession over to Mr X.

Legal owner, and legal ownership, are different.

Legal owner retains the title to the goods, but they may not be in his/her possession.

Legal ownership means being in possession of the goods, in line with relevant laws pertaining to them, ie, being entered upon an fac, or on RFD's books.

But you need to fill out Mr X's FAC as you sold it to him.

The two RFDs in question should never have to fill out the paperwork in these instances as they are never the owner, they will have temporary possession only (it will be entered in to the registers but that still doesn't mean they fill out FACs, only check that the person dropping off and the person picking up has it on their FAC and so allowed possession of it.

[artiglio]

So following the owner/possession argument through.

There is nothing wrong in taking payment for a firearm at arms length (payment via internet and you send an email receipt or bill of sale), but the actual transfer of the firearm from one license to another takes an additional 2 steps, one to an rfd that then sends it to a second who then transfers it to the purchasers FAC (having ensured he has the authority (slot) to possess it).
In this way the firearm only remains on any one certificate at any time (vendor/rfd/purchaser) where as if you were to receive the purchasers FAC by post and fill it in and return it, then go ahead with an RFD transfer, you technically no longer have a slot for it and it would exist on two facs (purchasers and rfd's ) at the same time. Surely the generally accepted procedure is preferable and covered by the wording.

So there has been no change , or have I missed something ?

[Gaz]

I don't think 'legal owner' makes a difference. You don't need to be a legal owner to have a gun on your ticket, it's 'possession' that's the important part. It needs to be 'on ticket' to be able to possess, legal owner or not. As far as Licencing is concerned, it makes not a jot of difference who owns it, just who is in possession.

I sell a gun to 'Mr X'
He pays me, and is the legal owner, but all the while it's in my possession, I am responsible for it, and it needs to stay entered on my fac until I 'transfer' the possession of it to my RFD. It can now come off my fac as I'm no longer in possession, the RFD is, who then sends it to Mr X's RFD, who takes possession of it, Mr X then picks up his gun from his RFD, who transfers the possession over to Mr X.

Legal owner, and legal ownership, are different.

Legal owner retains the title to the goods, but they may not be in his/her possession.

Legal ownership means being in possession of the goods, in line with relevant laws pertaining to them, ie, being entered upon an fac, or on RFD's books.

But you need to fill out Mr X's FAC as you sold it to him.

The two RFDs in question should never have to fill out the paperwork in these instances as they are never the owner, they will have temporary possession only (it will be entered in to the registers but that still doesn't mean they fill out FACs, only check that the person dropping off and the person picking up has it on their FAC and so allowed possession of it.

But the FAC entry has nothing to do with ownership and everything to do with possession. Anyone can be the legal owner of a gun, whether they've got a ticket or not. However to be in possession of it they either need their own FAC/SGC or need to be under one of the various exemptions (rifle club, estate gun, etc etc).

It makes perfect sense to transfer your legal possession of the firearm to the RFD when you have it couriered away to the new buyer. It's safer as well, as there's less risk of someone dodgy getting hold of your FAC. Would you post your ticket to someone who rang up and said they'd seen your ad on Guntrader?