Re: New Petition
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:57 pm
BASC has linked to the petition - http://basc.org.uk/blog/key-issues/targ ... -petition/ not something I recall seeing them do before.
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New Petition
Page 3 of 13
Re: New Petition
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:21 pm
dunnit
Re: New Petition
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:13 am
I shall be speaking to my BASC representative and asking him why they are supporting this petition.
Unless Firearms UK change the wording I can not support this petition. I urge you all to read very carefully the wording of the petition before you sign it.
Unless Firearms UK change the wording I can not support this petition. I urge you all to read very carefully the wording of the petition before you sign it.
Re: New Petition
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:37 am
BASC don't lend their support on a whim. We have a positive relationship with BASC and continue to liaise with them on matters which impact or can benefit both our organisations, BASC are just one of the many organisations who have been consulted and had an opportunity to review the petition text.Alpha1 wrote:I shall be speaking to my BASC representative and asking him why they are supporting this petition.
Unless Firearms UK change the wording I can not support this petition. I urge you all to read very carefully the wording of the petition before you sign it.
Re: New Petition
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:13 am
Like I said next time I am at the Range I will ask our BASC representative why they are supporting this petition.BASC don't lend their support on a whim. We have a positive relationship with BASC and continue to liaise with them on matters which impact or can benefit both our organisations, BASC are just one of the many organisations who have been consulted and had an opportunity to review the petition text.
Re: New Petition
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:57 am
Can someone from Firearms UK please give the counter argument to Gaz's interpretation of the consequences of the wording and what they think the implications of their wording would be.
Just saying that it has been signed of by knowledgeable bodies does not fill me with hope if by that you mean our "national" organisations as they were the ones that let us down, shafted us, at the time of the pistol ban. I wouldn't trust any of them to put the broad and key issue of gun ownership before there own vested interests.
I have a lot of time for what Firearms UK is trying to do however if they are going to be taking all the baggage of the past that our "national" bodies have and the lack of trust that most shooters have in them then I fear we will not go very far.
The old guard and current organisations seem incapable and/or unwilling to reconstitute themselves into the kind of gun ownership body British shooters desperately need so any attempt at an alternative has to be good but not if they are carrying the dead weight of the current crop of organisations.
Just saying that it has been signed of by knowledgeable bodies does not fill me with hope if by that you mean our "national" organisations as they were the ones that let us down, shafted us, at the time of the pistol ban. I wouldn't trust any of them to put the broad and key issue of gun ownership before there own vested interests.
I have a lot of time for what Firearms UK is trying to do however if they are going to be taking all the baggage of the past that our "national" bodies have and the lack of trust that most shooters have in them then I fear we will not go very far.
The old guard and current organisations seem incapable and/or unwilling to reconstitute themselves into the kind of gun ownership body British shooters desperately need so any attempt at an alternative has to be good but not if they are carrying the dead weight of the current crop of organisations.
Re: New Petition
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:59 am
While I understand Adam's point of view, I don't have his history of the shooting bodies in the UK. In fact, I can only comment on BASC, of whom I've been a member for 8 years - While by no means perfect, I'm happy with the service they've provided and the largely proactive (IMO) stance towards shooting issues they've taken in that time.
Regarding the petition, I would have to read the full act and supporting notes to get a full appreciation of the implications. My concern with the act is that it's knee jerk legislation written 16/17 years ago and that can't be good or relevant for now. On the plus side it's a start and with the backing of BASC it'll be interesting to see how many signatures this gets and if it wades in to provide counter arguments to the concerns raised - I hope so.
What I find interesting is that BASC has wholeheartedly backing this as I received an e-mail from urging all members to sign it. It makes me wonder if BASC is going to take more of an interest in types of shooting outside it's normal remit - if so, what does it for mean for smaller organisations without the membership base and money of BASC?
Regarding the petition, I would have to read the full act and supporting notes to get a full appreciation of the implications. My concern with the act is that it's knee jerk legislation written 16/17 years ago and that can't be good or relevant for now. On the plus side it's a start and with the backing of BASC it'll be interesting to see how many signatures this gets and if it wades in to provide counter arguments to the concerns raised - I hope so.
What I find interesting is that BASC has wholeheartedly backing this as I received an e-mail from urging all members to sign it. It makes me wonder if BASC is going to take more of an interest in types of shooting outside it's normal remit - if so, what does it for mean for smaller organisations without the membership base and money of BASC?
Re: New Petition
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:14 am
Have had an email from BASC asking for my support - so hopefully that will get to a large number.
Re: New Petition
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:34 pm
Looked at the legislation and I disagree with your interpretation.Gaz wrote:I have a problem with the wording.
The petition says section 12(1)(c) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act (No.1) 1997 (I like all these brackets, honest) should stay repealed. Assuming that means the rest of section 12 would therefore come into force, this means subsection 3 would become law. That says:
If the law doesn't say anything more about "licensed pistol clubs" or "licensed premises" (as opposed to "Home Office Approved" and "approved by a range certification body" - the wording's critical) this could open the door for all manner of stupidity to be arbitrarily imposed by the police setting up a pistol club licensing scheme and potentially a range licensing scheme.(3)Any firearm certificate in force immediately before the day on which this section comes into force which—
(a)relates to a small-calibre pistol; and
(b)is subject to the condition that the pistol is only to be used on an approved range;
shall be treated on and after that day as being held subject to a condition requiring the pistol to be kept at licensed premises of a licensed pistol club.
To the police, especially ACPO, this is a golden goose. Want a pistol club licence from us? That'll be £250, renewable annually. Want your perfectly functional range licensed for pistols? That'll be another £500, renewable annually too. Oh, and each pistol must be stored separately within the club armoury from other firearms. Can't have non-pistol members gaining access to pistols, yknow. Add on all the costs you'll need to effectively build an armoury-within-an-armoury.
I can't sign this. It opens too many cans of worms.
My view is the requirement for pistols to be kept at a licenced pistol club as per 12(3) is void because that condition is no longer a requirement for issuing a FAC for a 22 rimfire pistol if 12(1)(c) remains repealed. Also, if section 13 is longer is no longer in force then there no requirement to have a permit to allow you to have your pistol outside of the club - this IMO further nullifies 12(c).
Also, Part 2 of the amendment specifies a licence for a Pistol Club will £150 and be 6 years in duration.
This is only my reading of the act and I'm no expert, but I'm happy with the wording of the petition - at this point in time.
Edit: Having section 11 remain repealed would be help remove any doubts as well, IMO.
Re: New Petition
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:25 pm
Hmm. Re-reading 12(3), I think you're right.Sandgroper wrote:Looked at the legislation and I disagree with your interpretation.Gaz wrote:I have a problem with the wording.
The petition says section 12(1)(c) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act (No.1) 1997 (I like all these brackets, honest) should stay repealed. Assuming that means the rest of section 12 would therefore come into force, this means subsection 3 would become law. That says:
If the law doesn't say anything more about "licensed pistol clubs" or "licensed premises" (as opposed to "Home Office Approved" and "approved by a range certification body" - the wording's critical) this could open the door for all manner of stupidity to be arbitrarily imposed by the police setting up a pistol club licensing scheme and potentially a range licensing scheme.(3)Any firearm certificate in force immediately before the day on which this section comes into force which—
(a)relates to a small-calibre pistol; and
(b)is subject to the condition that the pistol is only to be used on an approved range;
shall be treated on and after that day as being held subject to a condition requiring the pistol to be kept at licensed premises of a licensed pistol club.
To the police, especially ACPO, this is a golden goose. Want a pistol club licence from us? That'll be £250, renewable annually. Want your perfectly functional range licensed for pistols? That'll be another £500, renewable annually too. Oh, and each pistol must be stored separately within the club armoury from other firearms. Can't have non-pistol members gaining access to pistols, yknow. Add on all the costs you'll need to effectively build an armoury-within-an-armoury.
I can't sign this. It opens too many cans of worms.
My view is the requirement for pistols to be kept at a licenced pistol club as per 12(3) is void because that condition is no longer a requirement for issuing a FAC for a 22 rimfire pistol if 12(1)(c) remains repealed. Also, if section 13 is longer is no longer in force then there no requirement to have a permit to allow you to have your pistol outside of the club - this IMO further nullifies 12(c).
Also, Part 2 of the amendment specifies a licence for a Pistol Club will £150 and be 6 years in duration.
This is only my reading of the act and I'm no expert, but I'm happy with the wording of the petition - at this point in time.
Edit: Having section 11 remain repealed would be help remove any doubts as well, IMO.
Any firearm certificate in force immediately before the day on which this section comes into force
... which implies that certificates issued after 12(3) comes into force aren't subject to that condition, and with 12(1)(c) remaining repealed then there is no provision for a statutory "no home storage" condition to be applied to new FACs.
While re-reading the 97 No.1 Act I have spotted something else, though.
The petition says this:
... so the end state is that the 97 No.1 Act comes into full force, less sections 12(1)(c) and 13.1. Repeal the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997
2. Amend the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 such that the following sections remain repealed:
a. Section 12, 1(c)
b. Section 13
Section 1 of that Act, which would therefore remain in force as I understand the petition, says this:
Perhaps I'm wrong again. Perhaps I've misread something and got confused. Would someone (Sandgroper?) be kind enough to read the law and the petition again and form a second opinion?1 Extension of s.5 of the 1968 Act to prohibit certain small firearms etc.
(1)Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 (referred to in this Act as “the 1968 Act”) shall have effect with the following amendments.
(2)In subsection (1) (which describes weapons which are prohibited by section 5), after paragraph (ab) there shall be inserted the following paragraph—
“(aba)any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon, a small-calibre pistol, a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus;”.