Badger shoots pawloaded .303

[Dougan]

Fire forming. Full length sizing. Neck sizing.

*looks baffled*

Maybe we misunderstood what the bald monkeys did...

We shot some Privi .303 then gave the cases to a bald monkey, who measured them and tweaked them, then poured some powder into them and stuffed a bullet on top.

We fired them again.

The bangs escaped and the bullets grouped very nicely.

We then fired some other low power .303 rounds that used cartridges from another rifle. They didn't group nearly so well.

:lol: :roll: :lol:

Please tell me you're joking! - There's nothing unsafe about someone loading for you (assuming they know what they're doing and loading for), but that's not the point!

You've got to try doing your own loading...

[meles meles]

We'll need to evolve opposable thumbs first, tree rat...

[Dougan]

Look you skunk-marked overweight ground-squirrel* ...

...you can use drills for the case prep, you only have to push a button to use a 'Target Master Tickler', and use both paws for seating...lack of an opposable thumb is not a valid excuse!


*not so much 'rumble in the jungle', as 'words in the woodland' razz

[dromia]

Would like to explore this a tad further.......

I lease a range that's 100yds, sand back & is safe certificated as penetrable targets (so paper or bunnies ) & it lists as ammunition limitations Muzzle Energy as 2030 Joules with a M Velocity of less than 718m/s (1495 Ft/Lbs & 2550 Ft/s for the imperialists ) Its used for black powder & low loaded pistol cals as well as its original 0.22 NSRA target rifle.

......... it does not say .38/ 357 / 22 or any cal .... just energy & MV?

So if I follow on from what you have done, I can develop a cheap 308 TR & a 303 SR round that is under those limits & thus OK to use on that range?

..... using led bullets & less powder load? Thus do basic full-bore training & experience shoots on that range rather than Bisley?

..... but does that not enter the territory where the case does not obscurate to form a seal in the chamber so you get back gas thru the bolt face & loading port?

Can people please discuss & I will learn from that before talking to the range owner .......

Cheers ...............

I introduced this a few years ago to one of my clubs.

Regarding the range certificate it defines what you can shoot on that range. So long a what you shoot is legally held for that purpose and shoots within the range certificate limits then you are good to go.

Just to cover the clubs back I also introduced a paper trail in the event that plod or whoever might turn up saying that we are shooting 303's on an indoor 25 yrd range. All loads have to be recorded as to their make up, 5rnds shot over the club chronograph and an average taken of the MV this along with the boolit/bullet weight entered into a simple programme on the club laptop gives you the ME, this is entered onto a proforma and signed off by the duty officer as a safe load for the range and that load can be shot from then on. Any alteration to the load and it has to be rechronographed and signed of as a different load.

If you want more detail then email me.

[dromia]

And be careful of Secondary Explosive Effect if you aren't filling the cartridge fully...

Dear oh dear, the danger of a little knowledge.

Secondary Explosion Effect (SEE) is a phenomenon applicable to reduced loads of medium to slow rifle powders, I never go below 60% case fill with these powders. I have posted a few times on this before and a search could help your knowledge.

For these reduced 25 - 50 yrd loads I have always advocated using fast pistol powders, as per Harris and Mattern. These powders do not cause SEE and are quite safe.

Which is not the implication of the post in question.

[dromia]

Would like to explore this a tad further.......

..... but does that not enter the territory where the case does not obscurate to form a seal in the chamber so you get back gas thru the bolt face & loading port?

Can people please discuss & I will learn from that before talking to the range owner .......

Cheers ...............

That doesn't happen when you use fast burning pistol powders as I advocate. Do a search as it has been extensively discussed here before and read Harris's article on reduced loads in military rifles lodged in the library.

[phaedra1106]

And of course no one (including the major powder manufacturers) has ever managed to duplicate SEE under laboratory conditions.

There are many theories as to what actually occurs when an "SEE" is reported, usually, as Dromia has said, it's suggested that a very low charge of slow burning powder has been used in a large case. One theory suggests that it may not be the actual amount of powder that's the problem, most of the older powders are position sensitive, a case with a low "line" of powder sitting in the bottom of the case (when shot horizontally) may allow the pressure from the primer ignition to force a bullet into the lands before fully igniting the powder. With the bullet out of the case and into the barrel the amount of empty space (case volume as such) has increased substantially by the time the powder fully ignites.

Again, as Dromia has said, using the newer position insensitive fast burning double base powders like Vhit N310 and TiteGroup is a much better solution to produce reduced charges. Hodgdon specify a reduced load of 8gr of TiteGroup for .308 Win, this gives a very low case fill volume (approx: 18%). This is a published load and bearing in mind that as powder manufacturers are not looking to be sued by someone blowing themselves up as a result of using their data the published minimum load will be well within the realms of a safe load.

[dromia]

And of course no one (including the major powder manufacturers) has ever managed to duplicate SEE under laboratory conditions.

Jeff, I suggest that you read "Firearms Pressure Factors" from Wolfe Publishing Co which contains a substantial contribution from Lloyd E Brownell Phd and then review that statement.

[hitchphil]

Just to cover the clubs back I also introduced a paper trail in the event that plod or whoever might turn up saying that we are shooting 303's on an indoor 25 yrd range. All loads have to be recorded as to their make up, 5rnds shot over the club chronograph and an average taken of the MV this along with the boolit/bullet weight entered into a simple programme on the club laptop gives you the ME, this is entered onto a proforma and signed off by the duty officer as a safe load for the range and that load can be shot from then on. Any alteration to the load and it has to be rechronographed and signed of as a different load.

Thanks for the info so far, will indeed search & read up more.

My intention would be to develop a suitable load for 303 / 308 TR / SR at 100yds then hand a big pile of preped cases to a tame RFD in the clubs cage to load them & get a CIP test cert - so any one from club can use them & as long as we stick to that ammo recipe. .....& segregate the ammo of course etc.

Can any one give me a rough material cost per 1000/rnds for a lead 308 so i can do a few sums with my treasurer & work up some rom costs of shooting.

Presume suitable lead heads are commercially available as dont think we want to start casting them yet (but its certainly a future option).

[phaedra1106]

Dodgyrog charges me £60/1000 for 115g lead boolits or £120/1000 with gas checks fitted, as I'm shooting them at under 1000fps I use them without. Powder, using 5.9gr of N310 works out at 2p a shot (£55/Kg) add a primer and that's around £110/1000, brass cases should last quite a while as they aren't being worked anywhere near as hard as a normal full charge.

Adam, I spoke to Hodgdon last year after SGC suggested SEE as a cause of the 9mm failure, they mentioned the pressure wave effect he refers to but said they hadn't been able to reproduce an SEE.