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ovenpaa wrote:I am thinking of buying a multi stage press for .223 ammunition, I know that Dillon do such things however they are scarcer than scarce things over here, are there any alternatives? Ideally if I could build 500/750 rounds in a day I would be quite happy. This is purely to feed a new habit for shooting at 200/400 yards and only for ammunition for my own use.

Although I can buy a cheap .223 by the bucket load it is not really suited to my needs. Doe anyone have any suggestion for a suitable machine, I prefer it to be European sourced.

There are 2 or 3 places that sell Dillon from stock near me. One of them only stocks pistol calibres, but he added a 1050 in .308 to his Dillon order for me and that's how I obtained my press a year or so ago. One of the others might have .223 in stock.

You often hear that progressives don't make ammo as good as single stage presses, but I'm yet to find a parameter by which ammo made on my 1050 is 'worse'. Of course, I don't throw powder on it, but by using Quality dies (Redding, Forster etc) I get consistency in seating depth, bullet runout, shoulder position that is not measurably worse than they were on a single stage press. The first ammo I made on it gave me a PB at 300m that was one point short of the Commonwealth record (60 shots at a [Edit] 1.2 minute bull, which is practically an F Class target shot with no optics or rest). My production rate is limited to about 200 to 250 an hour with a charge variance of about +/- 0.02 gr, but it is practically worth having the press just to be able to full-length size and trim 750 cases per hour.

I've had a couple of brief dealings with Dillon themselves and both have been just 'ok'. On the other hand I've dealt with two reloading companies whose customer service people often rave about and have had absolutely appalling experiences. I think there's an element of chance involved, but you only really find out if a supplier is any good when something goes wrong, and that hasn't happened to me with Dillon.

People seen to get more emotional and fanatical about which brand of progressive than about any other piece of reloading gear (well, perhaps apart from the infinite "Lee is great"/"Lee is sh*t" debate). I agonise over the simplest purchasing decision, and so the Dillon decision was not easy, but I have never regretted it. I wish I was able to use it more often, and better able to consume what it produces. I have a hazy vision of an HK MR308 in my future.

Note that all of this applies to the 1050 only. Among many months of research (actually, I think it spanned years) I took advice from someone who has made many millions of rounds on progressives, and has a 550, 650 and several 1050s and uses the 550 to make F Class ammo. Lots of people follow the marketing mantra that choosing between the Dillon models is simply down to the volume you need to produce. There is much more to it than that.

..

Just been reflecting on powder spillage during the shell plate moving from one station to the next.

The LnL uses two pawls that rotate the shell plate 1/2 way each on the up and down stroke, that makes for a very smooth plate movement and no jarring/powder spillage with full cases.


Haven't fully thought through why the Ammomaster is so smooth but that is irrelevant to this thread as it is no longer made, if I ever came across a second hand one I'd snap it up.

I have been giving this a lot of thought over the weekend.

I may as well load up for .308 as well as .223. The one area where the Dillon or any such press will fall down is the powder throwing as accurate ammunition required accurate powder metering and the Dillon and others seem to do this by volume. This is all well and good for spherical powder such as SP9 however not good for chunky double base Viht powders. This means the powder throwing stage would need to be made away from the press and the accurate charge added during the process.

For more precise loads I would neck size and tumble the cases first to ensure they are clean and ready to be used so effectively using as close to new brass every time, this does take away some of the benefits of the press in that I will be performing some operations outside of the press and accordingly double handling however it still leaves the press to perform the following

Prime, and I may even do this off press for the 'accurate' loads.
Powder throw, again this is a semi manual process.
Seat bullets.

So really the press will be used as a semi automated process so do I actually need a Dillon or is there another suitably robust system on the market that offers 3 or 4 stages with automatic indexing and very robust upper and lower plates/die holders.

Of course for the .223 plinking load this goes out of the window as I would like to build ammunition quickly and in one go however it is for a different purpose.

There are aftermarket accessories available to improve the powder dispenser on Dillon presses although I have no experience of them. David Tubb uses a Dillon 650 with a Prometheus Powder measuring system installed. Where and how you would get one is $64M question.

John, I have only ever seen pictures of the Prometheus and I have a feeling the stopped building them a few years ago although there were rumours of an 'improved' version if such a thing was possible. I was thinking of something vaguely similar with a Harrell's premium and tuned beam scale and one of Alan's tricklers.

I think Brant Cole still makes them to order but waiting time is measured in years and they are around $3k. If money and time were no object then maybe.

I have a David Tubb DVD where he has a Gen 1 Prometheus mounted on a Dillon 650 and is loading 6XC, I did a YouTube search but can't find anything on line. He also has done some other improvements to his 650 to improve the quality of the ammo produced.

...and I remember thinking they were pricey when they were USD1000. They are a work of art though and probably well worth the wait and money as there is no true commercial alternative.