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Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:27 pm
by Jenks
christel wrote:Sandgroper wrote:
Just as an aside - as badgers are omnivores
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/a ... ood_habits and take a wide variety of foods including small mammals, birds, amphibians, fruit and cereal crops - wouldn't an unchecked and increasing population have an adverse impact on all the prey species they feed on? As well as potentially causing them to come into conflict with fruit and cereal crop growers - with an increased call to control them?
Would it not be better then to maintain badger levels at a sustainable levels, thus preventing overpopulation and increased pressure on the badgers natural prey? It would maintain the health of the badger population due a decrease in stressors - overpopulation, competition for food and disease etc. Then you would have healthier population of badgers and the argument regarding the cause and spread of bTB would fall back on the farming practises because the badger population is smaller and healthier and therefore not at fault?
You have a point, which is why mankind is managing the environment to the best of their knowledge. Culling deer is necessary not only for their own sake but also for the surroundings where they live. I am not against culling badgers, they have no natural enemies, only thing I can think of are cars
I think, having no evidence whatsoever, that culling badgers will benefit the local wildlife and also the badgers.
However culling badgers to get rid of TB...no, that does not make sense.
Christel..
However culling badgers to get rid of TB...no, that does not make sense.
With respect I don't think that is the object of the proposed cull. If it is it will surely fail. As I understand it, and I'm sure that if I am wrong Dougan will correct me. The cull is to gauge the effect of removing a specific number of badgers (I believe it is 70%) from a given area on the incidence of bTB in cattle in the controlled cull area. That still leaves 30% some of which are bound to be infected with bTB. As I have already said. I would prefer to go much further and cull all badgers in the cull areas, and keep them badger free for a specified number of years. That should provide much more accurate data regarding the spread of the disease by badgers.
Jenks
Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:31 pm
by Sandgroper
Dougan wrote:
I don't want to upsett meles meles, but I know what you mean, and I have said that 'sustainable harvesting' would not be wrong - The problem is that people have never been sensible or reasonable where badgers are concerned...instead of taking the odd one for the pot, or controlling a few problem animals, there has been a tendency to take out the whole sett...and often by very inhumane methods - which is why they ended up protected....
....but I still disagree with 'culling' in any circumstances...
So if we changed it from 'culling' to 'sustainable harvesting' or 'population management' with appropriate controls and methods in place, you wouldn't have a problem with it?
Off topic but what about eradicating an alien introduced species to protect a native one?
Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:32 pm
by meles meles
Sandgroper wrote:
Off topic but what about eradicating an alien introduced species to protect a native one?
You're the aliens here, oomans !
Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:34 pm
by Dougan
Dougan wrote:or do you only mistrust journalists when they write about Afghanistan, race or politics?
Sandgroper - I've just re-read this post and realised that that was an unfair comment to be directed at you - please accept my apology (
)...
...and allow me to re-direct that one out as a general comment...
Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:35 pm
by Sandgroper
meles meles wrote:Sandgroper wrote:
Off topic but what about eradicating an alien introduced species to protect a native one?
You're the aliens here, oomans !
Since when? Go back far enough and we're all related in some way!
Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:38 pm
by Sandgroper
Dougan wrote:Dougan wrote:or do you only mistrust journalists when they write about Afghanistan, race or politics?
Sandgroper - I've just re-read this post and realised that that was an unfair comment to be directed at you - please accept my apology (
)...
...and allow me to re-direct that one out as a general comment...
You had me totally confused for a moment - it's easily done!
No harm done and no insult taken.
Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:44 pm
by Jenks
meles meles wrote:Sandgroper wrote:
Off topic but what about eradicating an alien introduced species to protect a native one?
You're the aliens here, oomans !
MM..
You're the aliens here, oomans
Ah! but we are the dominate species. For the time being that is. It might be a different story, if them that are in favour of lobbing Nuclear bombs around get their way............. Happen, it could then be the humble cockroach who is master of all he surveys.
Jenks
Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:45 pm
by Dougan
Sandgroper wrote:Dougan wrote:
I don't want to upsett meles meles, but I know what you mean, and I have said that 'sustainable harvesting' would not be wrong - The problem is that people have never been sensible or reasonable where badgers are concerned...instead of taking the odd one for the pot, or controlling a few problem animals, there has been a tendency to take out the whole sett...and often by very inhumane methods - which is why they ended up protected....
....but I still disagree with 'culling' in any circumstances...
So if we changed it from 'culling' to 'sustainable harvesting' or 'population management' with appropriate controls and methods in place, you wouldn't have a problem with it?
I would prefer anything that isn't a 'program' of sorts...but could not necessarily judge a farmer that was overrun with badgers who shot a few that came too close to his farm....and lets face it, does anyone think that farmers havn't been shooting badgers?....there is a theory (that I can't substantiate) that many of the badger found dead on the road, weren't run over....
And sorry - I should have qualified what I said about culling - I am not against the culling of non-endemic species...but not the badger, who is one of our few large endemic mammals left...and the TB issue is not their fault...
Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:03 pm
by Sandgroper
Dougan wrote:I would prefer anything that isn't a 'program' of sorts...but could not necessarily judge a farmer that was overrun with badgers who shot a few that came too close to his farm....and lets face it, does anyone think that farmers havn't been shooting badgers?....there is a theory (that I can't substantiate) that many of the badger found dead on the road, weren't run over....
If it was a 'program' it could be monitored more closely and could actually provide the basis of an effective population management program as well as a more accurate number count. Perversely, it could also reduce badger baiting because the people doing the controlling would have a interest in preventing that sort of thing from happening.
Regarding that theory, you could collect the carcass and get a vet to determine cause of death - I believe that is what is required to make sporrans from badgers, proof that it was natural causes or something like being hit by a car before the carcass can be legally used.
Re: Badger cull to go ahead
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:16 pm
by Dougan
Sandgroper wrote:Dougan wrote:I would prefer anything that isn't a 'program' of sorts...but could not necessarily judge a farmer that was overrun with badgers who shot a few that came too close to his farm....and lets face it, does anyone think that farmers havn't been shooting badgers?....there is a theory (that I can't substantiate) that many of the badger found dead on the road, weren't run over....
If it was a 'program' it could be monitored more closely and could actually provide the basis of an effective population management program as well as a more accurate number count.
I'm sure we've talked about you talking sense before...and I don't approve :P
I just think that it's a problem of our own making, and it's totally unfair to cull 100 000 badgers as an 'easy' solution....
As for the road death theory - It wouldn't be difficult to remove a bullet, run the badger over a few times, and then chuck it in the road.....and who's going to bother asking for an autopsy?