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Iain, this exactly why I cannot understand how some previously S5 rifles have been modified to become S1... It should not be able to happen. :shock:

Having said that we also have S5 pistols with a lengthened barrel and bar tacked onto the handle and all of a sudden they are S1 LBR's...

ovenpaa wrote:Iain, this exactly why I cannot understand how some previously S5 rifles have been modified to become S1... It should not be able to happen. :shock:

Having said that we also have S5 pistols with a lengthened barrel and bar tacked onto the handle and all of a sudden they are S1 LBR's...

possibly because the people who drafted the law did so in a hurry and without proper thought, planning or due diligence, leading to a confusing muddle which can apparently be interpreted in multiple ways, as indeed it appears to have been done successfully by ACR quote from their website

The Home Office has formally, through FELWG and ACPO classed our L1A1 SLR as unquestionably Section 1. The adaptations to the bolt and carrier mean not only that it could not be converted to S5 use but that the fact it was submitted for formal approval means all Police Authorities will be informed as part of ACPOs guidance.

Sim G wrote:The minimum length requirements of 24/40 relate to all shotguns on S2 also, regardless of mechanism/type. You can fit a pistol grip to any S2 or S1 semi/pump and it will still need to meet 24/40. The only exceptions to over all length on shotguns would be a S1 single barrel, SxS, O/U or lever gun. 12/24 applies with them.

I don't' believe this is correct. The relevant pieces of law are:

(3)This section applies to every firearm except—
[F1(a)a shot gun within the meaning of this Act, that is to say a smooth-bore gun (not being an air gun) which—
(i)has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter;
(ii)either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges; and
(iii)is not a revolver gun;

(^^This establishes what falls under section 2 - no mention of overall length)

And

any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or (excluding any detachable, folding, retractable or other movable butt-stock) is less than 40 inches in length overall [is prohibited]

(^^This establishes the 24/40 rule - but it specifically says for "self-loading or pump-action" smooth-bore guns)

So you could, unless I'm missing something, quite legally chop the stock off your break action section 2 shotgun - so long as the barrel stays 24" no other length matters. This allows for the following scenario: You get a semi-auto shotgun on section 2 with a 24" barrel and the magazine completely blocked off so it is a single shot. This could be fitted with a pistol-grip-only and would be a legal section 2 gun - it would look like this:



You then get another identical shotgun but this time on your FAC with a 24" barrel, un-crimped five round magazine, and full buttstock - a legal section 1 gun that would look this:



Finally, you swap the pistol-grip-only from the section 2 gun to the section 1 gun, and have just made a section 5 gun because it is now pump-action but does not meet the 40" minimum overall length.

Of course the section 2 gun is entirely unnecessary because you could just buy the pistol-grip-only on its own and whack it on your section 1 gun. I only make it a two-gun scenario to make it more closely parallel the scenario of swapping AR receivers.

Sim G wrote:There were some Imbel FALs made to S1 and one of the models was called the Wasp. This had only a 13" barrel. Standard FAL pistol grip and standard FAL butt. If the stock is fixed it is counted in the OAL, regardless of pistol grip or not. If the stock is folding, the stock has to be folded (extended length disregarded) to get the weapon's OAL.

Thanks for that, I dug up this picture of an Imbel Wasp in the UK. However, there's two problems with this example. Firstly, by my estimation, if you disregard the stock the Wasp still has an overall length of 26 inches. Secondly, I think I'm right in saying that FALs with fixed stocks like that have a tube running the length of the stock containing the recoil spring. This, being an integral working part of the gun, would necessarily be included in the length calculation even if the stock were not. Therefore I don't think it's proof that fixed stocks which can be removed for or swapping of stocks but leave the gun usable are not considered 'detachable' and therefore disregarded from measurements under the Firearms Act.

Porcupine wrote:I don't' believe this is correct. The relevant pieces of law are:

(^^This establishes what falls under section 2 - no mention of overall length)

You're dead right. Just goes to show how complacent you can get with our convoluted firearms legislation.....

And from the 2002 Guidance to Police on Firearms Law;

2.6 While overall length is not a relevant factor in regard to the classification of traditional single and double-barrelled smooth-bore guns and repeating shot guns with a bolt or lever-action, any such guns with barrels under 24 inches in length are subject to control under section 1 of the 1968 Act. Also controlled under section 1 is any repeating shot gun, not otherwise prohibited by virtue of its barrel length or overall length, with a magazine capacity in excess of two cartridges.

Very interesting about the S2 guns not having an OAL restriction, that means if you could lay your hands on a 2+1 SPAS you could have it with the folding stock - the ultimate posers gun!

Blackstuff wrote:Very interesting about the S2 guns not having an OAL restriction, that means if you could lay your hands on a 2+1 SPAS you could have it with the folding stock - the ultimate posers gun!

You mean like this one ? http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/120416180106595

Ballistol wrote:

Blackstuff wrote:Very interesting about the S2 guns not having an OAL restriction, that means if you could lay your hands on a 2+1 SPAS you could have it with the folding stock - the ultimate posers gun!

You mean like this one ? http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/120416180106595

Thats the one! Not for me, but pleanty people seem to be after them!

Ballistol wrote:You mean like this one ? http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/120416180106595

Perfect if they're all out of Uzi 9mm's, .45 long-slides, and phased plasma rifles in 40-kilowatt range

It comes with a 'butt hook'. Whoever Googles that is a braver man than I.

Perfect if they're all out of Uzi 9mm's, .45 long-slides, and phased plasma rifles in 40-kilowatt range

Excellent! :shakeshout:

For a variation for a plasma rifle do you think the Kilowatt range needs to be included?

Porcupine wrote:

Ballistol wrote:You mean like this one ? http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/120416180106595

Perfect if they're all out of Uzi 9mm's, .45 long-slides, and phased plasma rifles in 40-kilowatt range

It comes with a 'butt hook'. Whoever Googles that is a braver man than I.

:lol: The actual intended use of the hook is just as comical, one-handed hip-firing of a shotgun anyone? :lol: