The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Ridiculous. These bullets are MATCH bullets and are sold as such. The fact that they expand very well is by-the-by : so do most HPBTs - are they going to be S5 as well now?!

What does RFD mean what does D$C mean what does HO mean I hate it when people use abreviations no idea what you are talking about.
English please.

Devon & Corwall and Home Office.

The RFD that started this has been outed and there are now links to the meeting minutes. I'm on my fone so can't post a linoleum.

When you're not on your phone, if it's easy, can you please post a link? If a pain I will google!

Sorry about the abbreviations. RFD is Registered Firearms Dealer and refers to Mike Squires from the Devon & Cornwall area.

I googled Mike Squires and a link to another FB thread came up so he'sbeen named and shamed before.

Google Mike Spires RFD and you'll get the minutes from the original meeting. This weeks minutes aren't available yet.

Mike357 wrote:I googled Mike Squires and a link to another FB thread came up so he'sbeen named and shamed before.

Google Mike Spires RFD and you'll get the minutes from the original meeting. This weeks minutes aren't available yet.

from the meeting in March
Any Other Business
a Bullet Construction and Hand Loading
A long discussion ensured concerning the construction of
bullets.
Mike Squire raised the problem of the classification of
expanding ammunition and its use on ranges and for
wildlife management. He was aware from conversations
with customers that many did not understand how to
differentiate between certain types of bullet. He asked
when the current restrictions on the possession and use
of expanding ammunition would be amended, as hinted at
in previous meetings. He pointed out that some American
manufactured ammunition with ballistic tips were designed
to be dual purpose, for use both as target ammunition and
for wildlife management. Bullets that were described as
target or expanding rounds in their literature externally
appeared identical. He had sectioned a range of ballistic
tipped bullets, described by the manufacturer as target or
expanding, and compared them with bullets described as
dual purpose. He could detect no difference in
construction. Barry Collacott said he believed that until the
law was changed, bullets should continue to be treated as
either target or expanding for wildlife management, not
dual purpose. Mike Squire questioned how this would be
checked and enforced by the authorities when the loaded
bullets of each type could not be differentiated when stood
side by side. Barry suggested the legislation was
unenforceable.


sorry this may be just me, but I fail to see what this Mike Squires did that was wrong? he is on the committee to represent shooters and brought up a subject that has caused many acrimonious debates on various forums ie: whether certain bullets sold as target bullets can or even should be used on animals, the law is unclear and as agreed by the Firearms licensing operations officer the law is unenforceable, as I see it he was doing his job and trying to demonstrate to the committee yet another piece of poor legislation. A thing we are all constantly moaning about! so all of a sudden he is the villain of the piece? because there has been a balls up and target shooters have been using bullets that are to all intents and purposes identical in construction to expanding bullets for game use? and now its possible that the Home Office is going to re designate some bullets as expanding ? sorry but that is a risk you take when trying to get change with bureaucrats, sometimes they jump in the wrong direction! does this mean we should stop trying to change the status quo?
I would suggest people read the minutes of the meeting it looks to me like this Mike Squires is doing a pretty good job, of course I always did like a good tar and feathering

He sectioned the bullets? Well, according to Hornady's site, the cross-section of the bullets in question are completely different!

Sectioned? Section Squires!!

Bet he's European. Over the channel, the legal premise usually exists that everything is illegal, unless there is specific legislation allowing it. Here, every thing is legal unless there is specific legislation banning it.....

Hence, no legislation or common law, it's legal. The "authorities" only know about this because he said something. A-max was sold as a target bullet. Why muddy the issue? I imagine the "service" for his customers may have an effect on Squires, especially if like me they have a couple of hundred quids worth of Amaxes in the cupboard that one, you're unlikely to be able to sell as they are not proper expanding ammo for live quarry. And two, if they get this cast in stone I'm a criminal! Not because of something I've done, but because of this Richard Cranium!!!

I'm going to end up ranting for days about this, I can feel it......

Oh and if anyone can PM me his number, I'll let him know exactly how much money he's cost me....!! Masturbater!

Sim G wrote:Unfortunately, the Hornady site now describes A-maxes as; (See the first "bullet" point)

A-MAX® NOW featuring AMP™ bullet jackets!
Designed by match shooters for match shooters. With an ultra-low drag tip, our A-Max match bullets feature an aerodynamic secant ogive that delivers flat trajectories with excellent uniformity and concentricity. Find out more...

.Rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration.
.Recommended muzzle velocity range: 2000+ fps.
.These bullets are not recommended for hunting medium and large game.

I've just checked the other thread and the above is what I copied from the Hornady site at the time and as can be seen, it does mention "explosive expansion".

However, I've just checked the Hornady site now, and under A-maxes, it does not mention expansion and specifically warns against using A-max for hunting!!!

Mistake on the Hornady site, now rectified? Likewise, Squires and D&C have gone off half cocked. I still don't believe Squires sectioned a V-max and an A-max and couldn't tell the apart! The polymer shank of the tip goes way further into the lead core to predict expansion on the V-max, as opposed to the A-max where the polymer tip is just that, a tip....

Still ranting.....

kennyc wrote:sorry this may be just me, but I fail to see what this Mike Squires did that was wrong? he is on the committee to represent shooters and brought up a subject that has caused many acrimonious debates on various forums ie: whether certain bullets sold as target bullets can or even should be used on animals, the law is unclear and as agreed by the Firearms licensing operations officer the law is unenforceable, as I see it he was doing his job and trying to demonstrate to the committee yet another piece of poor legislation. A thing we are all constantly moaning about! so all of a sudden he is the villain of the piece? because there has been a balls up and target shooters have been using bullets that are to all intents and purposes identical in construction to expanding bullets for game use? and now its possible that the Home Office is going to re designate some bullets as expanding ? sorry but that is a risk you take when trying to get change with bureaucrats, sometimes they jump in the wrong direction! does this mean we should stop trying to change the status quo?
I would suggest people read the minutes of the meeting it looks to me like this Mike Squires is doing a pretty good job, of course I always did like a good tar and feathering

I am a bit late replying here so I echo SimG's comments. The bullets are different the Amax plastic tip is shorter, the manufacturers do not say they are expanding bullets and one person 'sectioning' two bullets is hardly a scientific study. Pull the ends out with a pair of pliers and it is instantly obvious they are different, so one man's observations have effectively put many hundreds if not thousands of UK shooters in jeopardy of breaking the law. What about hollow point target ammunition. US JAG stopped them being used in Iraq for a period as they decided they were expanding. So what happens if Mr Squires questions that next? OK he just raised the subject and the D&C chose to pursue but the deed is done now.