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1066 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:41 pm How can anyone say what my intention is?

I don't know. How is it proved in 'possession with intent to supply'? This isn't the first use of 'intent' in law. I can only quote Wikipedia:

"In criminal law, intent is a subjective state of mind (mens rea) that must accompany the acts of certain crimes to constitute a violation. A more formal, generally synonymous legal term is scienter: intent or knowledge of wrongdoing."

The wording in the consultation last year, was along the lines of making it an offence for you to make ammunition or hold components for which you did not have permission - to me that meant I could not hold 9mm components with an INTENT to make ammunition if I did not have 9mm on my FAC. I think what they are getting at is stopping FAC holders gathering components and making ammunition for the criminal fraternity, which has happened.

And if you do have 9mm on your ticket, unless there's actual evidence that you're supplying, or planning to supply criminals, how can anyone prove intent?


Pete

My club FAC was renewed a few months ago.. all the potential calibre rifles were deleted from the club fac and almost all the ammunition.. I hold one club rifle, a Marlin .357, but the 357 ammo and almost everything else was deleted from the FAC,.. what do I do with the club Marlin with no ammunition?

Mike95

rox wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:20 pm

Blackstuff wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 7:48 am I may be reading this wrong, but where in the text are the exemptions for certificate holders?

Right here:

(c) were the person to do so—

(i) possession of the ammunition by the person would constitute an offence under section 1, or...

Clearly it would be an offence if either
You do not hold authority to possess the cartridge concerned, or: you intend to manufacture in excess of you allowed quantity.

So it is going to be mere possession of components for a calibre you don't have on your ticket in your opinion? I have a few .38spl and .357Mag cases from when I used to own a Marlin U/L and I have .50BMG cases my brother-in-law gave me from when he was in the merchant navy and they had such guns on the ship to protect their cargo, would that now be an offence? Or do the Police need to prove intent to make use of them??

What if someone has all of the components (bearing in mind lots of primers and powders, some bullets and even some cases will have cross-compatibility) AND reloading equipment for a calibre they used to have (e.g. dies and bullet moulds), but at the time don't (the person may have the intention to get a gun of that calibre in the future), should that person then be forced to scrap/sell that equipment, then have to rebuy it in the future for fear of being accused of having the intent to load them up?

This is so murky and open to abuse in my eyes

You can legally make ammunition for someone else in calibers you DO NOT have on your certificate IF the other person is in your presence and holds that caliber on thier FAC...

So therefore you can currently have all the component parts and equipment to do so without fear of prosecution ...... so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.. Let's see if they need to reword the whole thing again ....

The problem is, and has always been, we roll over to keep the peace and comply meekly. If individual shooters weren't so apathetic and the associations were working in our best interests a lot of this rubbish would be challenged in court.

Aye going to court costs money and no nonsense like that is going to get in The way of Mr Mercer's (and the other greedy cretins acting as CEOs of our "organisations) performance related pay!

In their minds the organisations along with the memberships are here for their benefit not for the benefit of the members.

Blackstuff wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:27 am This is so murky and open to abuse in my eyes

Definitely.
So you have an antique or a deac of some sort that you want to make inert rounds for. You have the bullets, cases and dies to do so. Is that now illegal?
Because odds are if you reload other calibres to shoot with you will also have powder and compatible primers.

So you could have the capability and components required to make ammunition that you are not allowed to have in any quantity but for perfectly legitimate reasons.
Will that stop them claiming you had illegal intent?

As I understand it, the thinking behind the legislation is if the police do a drugs raid, for example, and find that the person has an antique firearm and cases, bullets, primers and powder but no loaded rounds, they can not prosecute for a firearms offence, or confiscate the items, as all the individual items are legal to own without an FAC, unless the person is a prohibited person. Using the new legislation, they will be able to make a case for the person having the components to make unlawful rounds and therefore be able to charge with a firearms offence as well as a drugs offence. If they use the legislation to make life difficult for FAC holders, time will tell.
I remember a case from several years ago where a dealer was selling deactivated firearms, but also selling with it an unchambered spare barrel and a chamber reamer. All the items were legal to sell individually but I think he was done on conspiracy to reactivate deactivated firearms. It was a father and son involved and they got five years each I think. I bought my M95 Mannlicher from them before they got done. They had a good selection of milsurps at the time.
Regards
Peter.