The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

The Gun Pimp wrote:

Dellboy wrote:Now ive allways thought that the 223 is running out of p**f at 600yards from a repeatable accuracy level .

So on another site a guy claims 4 inch groupings at 1200 yards regularly

Any thoughts ?

If you're shooting a factory 223, 600 yards is a realistic limit - if you can shoot minute of angle 5-shot groups (with any factory rifle) at 600 yds you are doing well. Yes, everybody gets lucky once in a while but none will come and shoot with us and prove it.

This is how I view all internet claims, as just that. Claims.

Outside of competition results (where I genuinely trust the scoring methods) or seeing it with my own eyes, far too many people make outrageous claims.

I must have skim read the original post, but 4" at 1200 yards - once, maybe. but regularly. I think someones telling porkies. Unless a group is 3 shots and comes mixed in with 15 other shots around it to make that "group"...

4” at 1200 yards.......what’s that in MOA?

I dare say there is a formula but I’m useless at maffamatics!

I shoot 308 @ 1000yds regularly & occasionally 1100 - 1200 i also shoot 0.22 to 500yds TR! & thats like shooting 308 at 1200! shot on target followed by one off target! the 1100 shoot is not called the catastrophe match for nothing:5, v, 5, v 3! & you will see no changes down range to explain why either!

4 inch gp at 1200 pfft! is just not realistic. even spindrift adds 1moa at 1000 up & right, a zero wind on the flags at 1000 is often 2-3moa if you can see let alone read the mirage. At 1 moa ~=1"/100yds thats 1/3 moa. not many 223s have a 34.8" sight base either! so their sights even if 1/4moa graduation cant achieve that. i call BullShit.

snayperskaya wrote:4” at 1200 yards.......what’s that in MOA?

I dare say there is a formula but I’m useless at maffamatics!

???0.333MOA???

I've taken my maths head off and wearing gin head! So might be wrong!

snayperskaya wrote:4” at 1200 yards.......what’s that in MOA?

I dare say there is a formula but I’m useless at maffamatics!

1 MOA =
1" at 100 yards = 1.047"
x12 (for 1200 yards) = 12.564"

Divide that by the claimed 4" = 0.3184 MOA

Maybe this claimer shot a 100yd group of 0.3184 MOA (0.33") and extrapolated if they could do their bit it would print 4" groups at 1200?!

I have been shooting my Remington 700 (.223) in an MDT chassis in benchrest factory class 600 yards at Diggle range and this is the best group I have a picture of (I did manage a 5 shot 128mm, but have not got a picture, so this is the best I can prove). I believe that my rifle shoots quite well for a factory rifle (other than the chassis and trigger). If I recall correctly (The Gun Pimp will know better), Daniel of Valmont Firearms shot his .223 factory Remington (AI chassis) in a 1000 yard benchrest competition circa 2019 and won the factory class that day.

I've had the advantage of shooting 223 at everything from 100 yards to 1,100 (once) and 1,224 (likewise once) with a mix of rifles employing 20 to 31 inch length barrels and 12 / 9 / 8 / 7 rifling twists. Built as a custom long-range rifle shooting 90s as Vince (The Gun Pimp) says, it is a just capable 1,000 yard competition cartridge and can stretch to greater distances in straight ballistics if not competitiveness.

When I shot my Savage custom gun in GB F-Class Assoc League F/TR back in 2009-12, it was just competitive with 308 Win when 155gn bullets were the norm in the latter. 223 has barely moved on since then whilst today's 308 shooting the Berger 200-20X bullet at very high pressures and MVs from small primer brass is a completely different and much more muscular animal than its predecessors in long-range shooting.

Whilst super-freebore chambers and 90gn VLDs matched contemporary 308 ballistics 10 years ago, 223's big plus was its light recoil in a heavy supported rifle. It was, and remains, much easier to shoot off a bipod supported rig than a 308 with heavy loads. The reticle barely shifted on the aiming mark at 1,000 shooting prone even with 90s at 2,910 fps. Very, very nice to shoot and much less tiring than 308 allowing concentration to be maintained longer.

North America and Australia sees far more 223 prone match use than here in both traditional Target Rifle and F/TR. Canadian TR aside though, it's mostly in short and mid-range matches, even though a few of the 'faithful' soldier on shooting 90s at 800-1,000. I don't know the breakdowns, but I wouldn't be surprised if 223s don't make up at least half the F/TR entry in most US mid-range (ie 500/600 yard) matches these days. Initially, 223 was often seen as the way to get teenage kids and slightly built wives and girlfriends onto the range, but when the 12 and 13 year olds started humiliating their 308 shooting Pops, the older generation followed suit having discovered how well the mouse cartridge can perform at these distances with a good set-up and suitable handloads.

Many of the male shooters who've stuck with the cartridge at long-range probably do so because of arthritis, eye, and other infirmities that have made 308 just too punishing or risky to use. I can't remember his name, but the long-term UK 3-position ISSF 300 metre shooter who with his wife and fellow ISSF competitor go back to the Malcolm Cooper days and who had a feature in the NRA Journal a couple of issues back on building a copy of the 'Cooper Special' contacted me before Christmas re shifting from 6BR to 223 in a new rifle for this very reason. They've also found that in the limited amount of competition time they have got in since the build thanks to Covid shutdowns, initial indications suggest it will hold its own against, even beat, 6mmBR.

Seems it would be lucku to hold sub .4MOA at 1,200. Was it in the US per chance?

As a bit of a derailment, anyone tried the 60gr Sierra Tipped Match Kings in .223 rem?

Scrummy