The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

mag41uk wrote: Alan Westlake has been "converting" browning 22 rifles into buck mark lbp`s for many years.

Isn't this a case of S1 to S1 conversion?
Bringing in frames and making a S1 item is the same as the HO told me "there are no S5 parts, just parts of S5 weapons". So until point of manufacture the parts would take the lower classification until the completed item fixes the class.

I can't help thinking that it would have been so much simpler if they'd decided that the S1/S5 determination woud be as the gun was when imported into the UK, and never mind what it might have been in the past. Maybe (probably) I'm missing something, but what "loopholes" do they think they've closed by doing it the way they are? They could still, if they wanted, have kept the "once S5, always S5" rule for guns already here, but it seems to me that if Acme Firerams Inc were to export an out-of-the-factory-S1 gun to the UK there is no way on earth that anybody could ever know if it had been what would be an S5 at some earlier stage.

I will not look for logic and reason in the Firearms Act, that way madness lies.
I will not look for logic and reason in the Firearms Act, that way madness lies.
I will not look for logic and reason in the Firearms Act, that way madness lies.
I will not look for logic and reason in the Firearms Act, that way madness lies.
I will not look for logic and reason in the Firearms Act, that way madness lies.
I will not look for logic and reason in the Firearms Act, that way madness lies.
I will not look for logic and reason in the Firearms Act, that way madness lies.

At the time of the Amendment Act, there were a number of "working practices" taking place that people today wouldn't believe went on. Firearms licensing had a more relaxed attitude and guns in general were far more accepted than today.

The legislating against converting from one category to another had a pretty real application at the time. I have seen previously a Bren gun smoothbored to .410 with a spot of weld over the full-auto position of the selector lever. That was held on shotgun certificate. Likewise I've seen a Czech Scorpion Vz63 with a spot of weld and held as a .32acp pistol. And there were even some Remington 870 and 1100 12 ga shotguns with the barrels cut to the fore end, with a pistol grip fitted and the barrels rifling "engraved". If memory serves these were marketed as 18mm Defender Pistols....!!

The law is not wishy-washy when it comes to this. If at any time been a weapon as described in s5 then it shall be treated as a prohibited weapon notwithstanding anything done for the purpose of converting it into a weapon of a different kind.

As has been found, this makes satisfying our very limited market with some fairly innocuous modifications a very strict no-no.

There's a difference, surely, between one-off/low volume conversions such as you describe and a manufacturer "converting" a gun before it leaves his factory.

Added as a PS because of the madly aggressive limit on editing. So mad, in fact, that I was able to start editing the post above, but then got timed out while I was typing

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If an LBR is considered S1 because it is factory built with a 30cm barrel and an extension rod, at what stage is the rod added, or has to be added? If you've got a functioning gun before the rod is added (even if it isn't finished), then surely what you have is a S5, and therefore something which does not become a S1 once the rod is added.

I think you're splitting hairs now. Ultimately, if a revolver or .22 semi pistol is a factory option and one of those options is a U.K. legal LBR or LBP, once it's placed in the box for shipping, would be the manufacturing process complete.

If it conforms to U.K. dimensions once made, it's a s1 for import. If, it would fall into s5 for import, then it will always be s5 regardless what was then done to it to give the appearance of s1. That is what the law says.

We know that S&W have refused to supply frame kits only. We know that S&W Performance Centre have refused to add an extension bar to previous models that featured a 12 inch barrel and S&W have refused to build a U.K. spec revolver.

But, Taurus took catalog models and gave them UK spec as did Uberti and Ruger. Armscor and Alpha Prodj supply frames with modified yokes for UK spec M/L so those either from the factory or U.K. built will be s1. Likewise, if you were to flick through a Brownells catalog and choose to build an s1 pistol with aftermarket or OEM available parts and get them imported into the UK, then the result would be s1.

Even if you had a one man band gunsmith in the US or any other country build a s1 spec gun from aftermarket or OEM parts, it would still be imported as a s1 regardless of the original completed design that contained these parts. But and thus is exactly the point, have someone built a "s1" gun by adding parts to an existing gun, that gun will always be what the original classification would have been.

Too add, we have had converted guns in the UK, except shotguns which are legislated specifically, that ultimately changed their appearance and even operation, but still remained in the original categorisation.

Browning Buckmark rifles have been converted to LBPs. But the rifle started as a s1 and remained a s1 after conversion. And Taurus LBRs have been converted from a 12/24 s1 into a 5 inch muzzle loading revolver. Both types of gun being s1, so no issues.

It is conversion to alter category where the law prohibits.

Back when the Taurus LBR first appeared there was a rumour that an unknown police force had obtained (seized) one for examination . Also that they had contacted Taurus to confirm that the LBR was in fact a factory build .

It seems that Taurus confirmed it was a factory build . This rumour came from two reputable RFD's , so I suspect it is true.

When the Alfa LBR first appeared , Merseyside Police borrowed one to check , it seems they also may have contacted Alfa to confirm it was a factory build .
I have seen the police pictures of the Alfa , so it is not a rumour .

Sim G wrote:I think you're splitting hairs now. Ultimately, if a revolver or .22 semi pistol is a factory option and one of those options is a U.K. legal LBR or LBP, once it's placed in the box for shipping, would be the manufacturing process complete.

If it conforms to U.K. dimensions once made, it's a s1 for import. If, it would fall into s5 for import, then it will always be s5 regardless what was then done to it to give the appearance of s1. That is what the law says.

Well if I am splitting hairs then that's only because what the law does, or what those interpreting it do.

The process you talk about in your first paragraph is what makes sense, and surely what the law intends. But there are those who argue that if the Acme Firearms Inc manufacturing process includes a stage where fully finished but unboxed and never offered for sale S5 handguns are shipped by the maker to a low-volume specialist subcontractor who modifies them into S1 ones, and returns them to Acme, who then box them up and offer them for sale then they are not truly S1.

Even if you had a one man band gunsmith in the US or any other country build a s1 spec gun from aftermarket or OEM parts, it would still be imported as a s1 regardless of the original completed design that contained these parts.

Let's ignore the economics, and ask the question what if these parts came from a third party who got them by disassembling new completed originals and then sold them to the gunsmith? What would be the difference between those parts and the exact same parts suppled by the original maker before they'd been assembled?

AFAIK we have only one domestic maker of S5 revolvers, and they are a bit "boutique", but hypothetically what would they have to do in terms of manfacturing processes to be able to offer an S1 version?

Sim G wrote:We know that S&W have refused to supply frame kits only. We know that S&W Performance Centre have refused to add an extension bar to previous models that featured a 12 inch barrel and S&W have refused to build a U.K. spec revolver.

OOI, does anybody know if that was for perfectly understandable economic reasons, or because of some principled stand?