Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Rifle

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Porcupine

Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#11 Post by Porcupine »

I don't think it's true that a handgun is just what you use to get to a 'better' weapon. In the home, shotguns and rifles can be unwieldy. My main problem with a shotgun or rifle in the home is that you can't take it sideways through a regular sized doorway. If you're trying to look down a corridor at right angles to the doorway you want to move through, you have to step out THEN bring the muzzle up. Equally, turning at the top or bottom of stairs can force you to step out without your muzzle up. If you have an open set of stairs with a banister rail then you're forced to put the muzzle out into the open air where it could be grabbed if there's a bad guy beneath you. Similarly, as you clear a doorway the muzzle can easily be grabbed by someone on either side of the door. If you have narrow corridors or hallways you get the same problem - if you want to lean around or out from a corner there's no room to keep the muzzle up as you do so.

To some extent you could address this by using a rifle or shotgun with a very short barrel, but in the US a rifle with a barrel less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches incurs a $200 tax and requires you to fill out a form, get it signed by your local chief of police, and wait for a few months while the ATF process the paperwork. That's not a big barrier - afterall we do basically the same thing just to own a single-shot .410 with a 24" barrel, but it does put people off when the alternative is to just buy a handgun there and then and save $200. In a few states, short barreled rifles and shotguns are completely banned anyway, and a lot of people have legal concerns about using a federally regulated weapon in a defensive shooting.

More importantly though, you can't fit a shotgun or rifle into your waistband (at least you won't be able to walk with it down there or pull it out quickly!). A lot of the growth in handgun sales in recent years has been as a result of right-to-carry laws and has been concentrated on subcompact and micro-subcompact pistols. I never considered carrying a rifle or shotgun because that's completely impractical. Even if you don't mind open carrying, who wants to carry 6+ lbs of metal around with them all day every day when you can carry a 10 oz handgun that slips into your pocket or waistband.

I do think a shotgun or rifle is an excellent choice if you want something to turtle with i.e. just hide behind your bed waiting for the bad guy to burst in. Both give you the steadiness of a shoulder stock. The rifle can give you a capacity rarely seen in handguns (30 rounds is standard in a rifle, unusual in pistols), while the shotgun is forgiving. People often say that shotguns are more powerful than other weapons but this isn't really the case. A 1 oz slug produces a temporary cavity about 10cm in diameter and a permanent cavity about 2.7cm in diameter. A .45 ACP hollowpoint creates a temporary cavity about 8cm in diameter and a permanent cavity about 2.2cm in diameter. A difference, but not a huge one. 5.56 FMJ creates a temporary cavity about 12cm in diameter (although it has to penetrate 15 inches to produce this - at 10 inches it is 10cm). Slugs penetrate deep, and that's great if you're shooting big game, but humans aren't that big. A .32 ACP can penetrate 18 inches, enough to reach the heart from almost any angle.

But here's 00 buck (similar to SG) at 7 yards (ignore the big hole in the torso):

Image

And here it is at 15 yards:

Image

Instead of a single permanent cavity you get several. This gives you a larger margin for error in your shot placement. A shot centered on the outside of the torso that might have only subjected the vital organs to hydrostatic shock or nothing at all had you been firing a rifle or pistol, might instead penetrate it directly. That's what makes the shotgun so effective.

But if you want to be able to move around - go investigate, try to escape, go get kids from their rooms etc - personally I think the handgun is the better weapon unless you have very wide doorways and corridors. Not that a shotgun or rifle is a bad choice, but consider this: When approaching a doorway or other opening there is 180 degrees of space on the other side, from your point of view at the opening. A bad guy could be in any one of those degrees. With a rifle or shotgun, with a standard doorway, you will have about a 20 degree blindspot to either side, making 40 degrees total. That's one fifth of the space that you can't see. With a handgun this is reduced to about 10 degrees or one eighteenth of the space. (The handgun still has a blindspot because to check the last 10 degrees on either side you need to poke your head out through the doorway, exposing the back of your head to the final 10 degrees on the opposite side).

The other point I'd add is that the over-penetration thing is really overblown. Handguns and shotguns will penetrate multiple interior walls, as will 5.56 and 7.62x39, but none will penetrate exterior brick walls or brick veneer. Unless you're shooting a full size rifle round, which I doubt anybody would want to do, you need to keep in mind that your rounds are like as not going to go right through the house until they hit an exterior wall but, unless they find a window or door, won't be leaving the house to go kill your neighbours. So know where your family are, have a plan, and train, and most any weapon will do a good job.
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Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#12 Post by Chuck »

Good informative post porcupine:

All about shot placement as well - horses for courses, the best gun is the one you have in your hand at the time...Not sure about an AR for home use, how big is the average home.....Most fights take place at 3 mtres, with three shots fired and last around 3 seconds according to the FBI.

Getting the kids out of bed and into a room, nahhh try doing it...Better to make the place deniable to perps and make EACH room a safe one..A perp intent on getting to you will do well before you get any screaming disorientated kid out of bed.
More importantly though, you can't fit a shotgun or rifle into your waistband (at least you won't be able to walk with it down there or pull it out quickly!). A lot of the growth in handgun sales in recent years has been as a result of right-to-carry laws and has been concentrated on subcompact and micro-subcompact pistols. I never considered carrying a rifle or shotgun because that's completely impractical. Even if you don't mind open carrying, who wants to carry 6+ lbs of metal around with them all day every day when you can carry a 10 oz handgun that slips into your pocket or waistband
Err also better IMO a proper "in the pants" or Outside The Pants holster for the gun, much better than blowing your gonads or colon over the room. And lots of practice....
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Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#13 Post by Porcupine »

Chuck wrote: Err also better IMO a proper "in the pants" or Outside The Pants holster for the gun, much better than blowing your gonads or colon over the room. And lots of practice....
Should go without saying I hope!

Image

Equally, a pocket holster is a good idea if you're doing pocket carry:

Image
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Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#14 Post by Chuck »

As has been shown on here time and time again it (unfortunately) does need saying..and not just to civvies.

Been training with some non UK copspast couple of years, only a matter of time before they kill someone that is not a criminal.."MAKE DO" HOLSTERS OR NONE AT ALL, SIGHTS SNAGGING IN TROUSERBANDS, WIDE SWEEPING MOVEMENTS when they draw and rack the slide to chamber a round (ooops caps lock) and worse, carrying pistols around and letting them dangle from their hands, finger on trigger on range and all cos they have NO holsters :cool2: :cool2: :cool2: (Try getting a Kydex serpa type one for a CZ75)..

Duty holsters are worn by uniformed chaps but the plain clothes lot have good old Jockey holsters. :cool2:
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Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#15 Post by Mike357 »

Mmmmm home invasion. Think I'll have some of what our little Russian friend. Might do without the tracer in cas eit scortches the carpet :lol:

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Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#16 Post by kennyc »

for what its worth, my 2 penneth, for home defence use a shotgun with birdshot , if you need any more than that you are too far away from the target to argue you were protecting life and limb, at close range No7 or 8 shot will do all you need, handguns are fine.... if you are not worried about "shoot through". if you are firing a handgun in the same building as your family then how often are you going to have the time or clearness of thought to check your backstop? same argument x10 for rifles they will not only go through your internal house wall, but there's a chance one or more of them are going to bring the good news to your neighbours! we don't live in Texas or Arizona where the nearest neighbour could be 10-20 miles away!. good old bird shot will generally stop at the first drywall, or at least lose enough energy to limit the damage it can cause, try the same with 250 grns of lead from a .45 or a .223 round! :D
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Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#17 Post by Porcupine »

kennyc wrote:for what its worth, my 2 penneth, for home defence use a shotgun with birdshot , if you need any more than that you are too far away from the target to argue you were protecting life and limb, at close range No7 or
In ballistic gelatin at close range, #8 shot (#7 in British sizes) will penetrate about 5 inches. #5 shot (#4 shot in British sizes) will penetrate about 8 inches. #00 buckshot (SG is slightly smaller, LG is slightly larger) will penetrate about 17 inches. #1 buckshot (SSG in British sizes) will also penetrate around 17 inches. #00 and #1 buckshot produce a great deal hydrostatic shock creating a wide temporary cavity (read: even if you don't hit the vital area, the force can still kill). The temporary cavity left by birdshot is minimal.

The FBI and the International Wound Ballistics Association require/recommend at least 12 inches of penetration for defensive ammunition. Obviously, the heart, lungs and brain are not 12 inches from the nearest bit of skin, but the human body is not all meat. There's tough organs and dense bits of muscle, lots of bone most importantly, and if your attacker is in a fighting stance then his vital area will be obscured by his hands and/or forearms (similarly if he raises his hands to shield himself). You may need to punch through all that and birdshot just doesn't have the energy to do it. You also may not be shooting someone face on - they may be above or below you, on a stairway for instance, or turned side on to you (especially if they are using a weapon of some sort). Of course it certainly can be lethal if you're lucky, but it might also leave your attacker conscious, able, and now thoroughly p*** off at what will look like a bad case of road rash.

Birdshot of varying sizes will penetrate no less than two sheets of drywall. Since there are typically two sheets per wall, it will go through an interior wall but, as you say, it has very little energy after that. It might take someone's eye out but not much more. #00 buck penetrates 8 sheets, or the equivalent of four interior walls. #1 buck penetrates 6 sheets, or the equivalent of 3 interior walls. None will penetrate a brick wall.

And of course barrier penetration is a double edged sword. We don't want ammunition to penetrate through walls where loved ones may be, but we do want it to penetrate through walls or objects that an attacker might be using as cover (or objects we are using as cover but want to shoot through).

Another problem with birdshot is its lack of range. You might kill someone standing right next to you if you're lucky, but you're very unlikely to kill someone just 10 yards away. It only takes a moment for an attacker to close that distance, and of course he might be shooting back (or be even closer to a loved one).
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Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#18 Post by kennyc »

sorry I thought we were talking about defending yourself and family IN your home, although I have a few customers with rooms stretching to 30 yds range they are few and far between,and my home is considerably smaller :) . to be honest in the heat of the moment I am pretty certain most people couldn't hit a human size target with a handgun at 30 yrds ;) individual shot penetration is not the whole story, at the range such a shot would be taken inside the average house you are not dealing with individual pellets, rather a discrete mass of lead, the shot column would hit as one lump and will create massive shock trauma, as the range opens up obviously the shot pattern will also open up and the effect will be greatly reduced (I speak from experience here having been "dusted" years ago by a low shot on a clay course that just made it to my position without enough energy to even break the skin) there is also the intimidation factor of a large shotgun pointing at you.as to the options of firing through walls at your target etc I think at that point you are moving well away from the idea of a home defence weapon and more into the realms of armed police operations, and they have different criteria (and access to good legal back-up) Pistols are good if you are legally able to carry them with you where ever you go, which we are not, shotguns can do the job as an emergency self defence weapon, rifles, in our environment are a liability. :D
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Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#19 Post by Porcupine »

I said 10 yards not 30 yards ;) At 10 yards, birdshot has lost about a quarter of its energy. If it penetrates 4 inches at 3 yards, and when you take clothing, bone etc into account, at 10 yards you may only be penetrating 3 inches or less which is not enough to destroy vital organs even when shot square in the chest.

These were shot from a fixed angle at a range of three yards.

#8 birdshot (#7)

Image

#1 buckshot (SSG)

Image

You can see the birdshot penetrated about 4 inches on average, while the pattern was about 3 inches in diameter (measuring vertically). There is no shock trauma. The dark square is the permenant cavity created by all the shot pellets traveling in a big clump. You can see that this area of destruction is slightly smaller than the pattern that the shot ends up in so there is no remote wounding effect.

The buckshot, in contrast, penetrated 20 inches maximum, 17 inches average, and caused so much shock that the gelatin block was ruptured. The shock damage travelled 12 inches into the block and extended 9 inches top to bottom (though obviously more could have been measured with a taller block) so you have a margin for error at least three times that of birdshot.

I'm not sure why a police officer would need to shoot through a barrier but a civilian would not. There's not much difference between a police officer in a gunfight with a drug dealer in a house and a homeowner in a fight with an intruder. If either the intruder or the drug dealer move behind an object (or you move to put an object between the two of you) but remains a threat, you may want to shoot through that object.
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Re: Distance, Power, Practicality: The Handgun Versus The Ri

#20 Post by kennyc »

Porcupine wrote:I said 10 yards not 30 yards ;) At 10 yards, birdshot has lost about a quarter of its energy. If it penetrates 4 inches at 3 yards, and when you take clothing, bone etc into account, at 10 yards you may only be penetrating 3 inches or less which is not enough to destroy vital organs even when shot square in the chest.

These were shot from a fixed angle at a range of three yards.

#8 birdshot (#7)

Image

#1 buckshot (SSG)

Image

You can see the birdshot penetrated about 4 inches on average, while the pattern was about 3 inches in diameter (measuring vertically). There is no shock trauma. The dark square is the permenant cavity created by all the shot pellets traveling in a big clump. You can see that this area of destruction is slightly smaller than the pattern that the shot ends up in so there is no remote wounding effect.

The buckshot, in contrast, penetrated 20 inches maximum, 17 inches average, and caused so much shock that the gelatin block was ruptured. The shock damage travelled 12 inches into the block and extended 9 inches top to bottom (though obviously more could have been measured with a taller block) so you have a margin for error at least three times that of birdshot.

I'm not sure why a police officer would need to shoot through a barrier but a civilian would not. There's not much difference between a police officer in a gunfight with a drug dealer in a house and a homeowner in a fight with an intruder. If either the intruder or the drug dealer move behind an object (or you move to put an object between the two of you) but remains a threat, you may want to shoot through that object.
Damn my eyes are going :oops: you are quite correct :D but I still hold by my original view that in order to protect home and family birdshot has the edge over buckshot and solids. As to shock trauma I find it hard to believe that someone taking an ounce and a quarter of lead shot in the body or face is going to shrug it off and keep coming, (unless they are hopped up on angel dust or whatever the modern equivalent is) a 3" wound depth is a potentially fatal wound in most of the body mass, it will cause considerable pain and blood loss, yes 00 buckshot will penetrate further, but that is my point, when does it stop? the answer is it may not stop until it has penetrated through a wall and buried itself in an innocent bystander! we are not talking search and destroy here, just theoretical home defence against an armed intruder (even in this day and age not a common event )
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