AR15 vs MARS VZ58

[Sixshot6]

So... New rifle time and I'm looking for some opinions.

I've had a .223/5.56 slot added and have been torn for a while now between a side-charging AR15 or VZ58 MARS. I was tempted to go for the VZ but my brain is telling me to go for a platform built for the cartridge (as I'll primarily be shooting 200+). I almost put 7.62x39 on my variation but saw the benefits of the 5.56 as it opens up a different world compared to a 7.62 short (accuracy, reloading etc) plus I wanted something a bit 'milder' for mid-range shooting than my Remmy. I already have a Tigr/SVD so I'm happy with straight-pull and the novelty of the VZ's action isn't a swaying factor.

I'm eyeing up one of the 20" 1:7 Valkyrie side-chargers as the way forward and thought I'd ping out for some input.

Requirements:

- Accuracy preferably < MOA which I understand both platforms can do. I'm not a 'great' shot but I can but try.
- Able to run milsurp for general plinking/practice which both can do as well as heavier match ammo for serious days. I will be reloading but will also buy a batch of RG to burn through.
- Mounting of bipods and decent mounts/optics - I understand the VZ is slightly disadvantaged due to the lack of a flat-top receiver and the need to buy a £250 mounting bracket or very very high side bracket.

Does anyone own either or both types and have any input?

I'm putting in my order tomorrow and I'm on the fence and could go either way...

Just add for the VZ58, there is a cheaper and more effective scope mount than what you were describing. http://magwedge.com/products/rifle-accessories/

This company in Canada makes one and it holds zero well, can use something like a Vortex Spitfire optic and is under £250. The owner David Drummond is also very good at responding to emails and giving advice on product usage. Its the VZ58 tactical Kwikrail.

[Maggot]

the novelty of the VZ's action isn't a swaying factor.

I will be reloading but will also buy a batch of RG to burn through.

Surely the action of the MARS is the only reason why you would buy it over an AR15 ? Also it's worth testing a small batch of RG if you do go down that route as my mates MARS does not cycle it very well, something to do with the pressure curve (apparently RG develops low port pressures to match the dwell time of the British service rifle)
I'd be on the fence too, but not for long, AR15 all the way (do you know you can get a lever release in .223 if you save up a few more £££).

I am with Dan. I would suggest that you consider a Bradley as well though giving your location. My BAR had had all sorts of abuse and keeps on going in all weathers. The COFs we shoot are designed for straight pulls and while I get that you may have a small advantage in that you dont need to disturb your position, with practice this is negligible, and I would have reliability against stoppages in competition every day of the week. The very few lever release rifles seen on the CSR circuit (and fewer still in the hands of the winners) says a lot.

[bnz41]

Valid points and interesting to hear it from someone with both. I'm leaning toward the AR, the VZ will probably have to wait for a 7.62x39 whim and variation request...

I took a quick look at SGC's lever release earlier and on the rifle builder it came to £3.5k. My wallet imploded at the thought of it.

I already have a Tigr/SVD so I'm happy with straight-pull

Everyone loves a Tiggggr.

Nice SVD thanks for posting what ammo do you shoot milsurp/factory/or reloads.....I have the SVDS with folding stock.

[James84]

Thanks for the input everyone, and yep, I've decided I'll go for the AR. I contacted Bradley Arms a few hours ago and Mark responded straight away so I'm giving him a call in the morning to talk through it then I've got to decide between the Valkyrie and Bradley Arms. I've handled both of these before and does anyone here have any opinions either way?

Nice SVD thanks for posting what ammo do you shoot milsurp/factory/or reloads.....I have the SVDS with folding stock.

Very nice! I was keen to get the SVDS but I got this one for a bargain and managed to source the glass cheap as well (my main office is based in the Czech Republic so I'm out there quite often...). I chuck the dirty 77 dated PKM stuff down it for general use (followed by some black powder cleaner afterwards) and I have some factory PPU which I've been reloading with .311 heads but to be honest, the milsurp is accurate enough for me at 200. The only issue I've got is that it has the 'stepped' chamber so I get that nice bulge on the neck of the brass which majorly depletes its life. Basically it's easier to just use milsurp and I'm going through the batch of 200 PPU cases I bought then probably never replacing them.

On the Dragunov topic, do you know anywhere I can get a bolt handle extender? I got one of the ICE bipod mounts which is great with the Harris but it just feels wrong so I normally stick with the Rusky bipod.

[Airbrush]

Good choice, you won't go wrong with either Bradley or Valkyrie, considering your location Bradley Arms is a no brainer.

[HH1]

The only "problem" with a straight pull is that you have to change your position considerably to pull the lever..... same applies to a bolt-action.

I have a 9mm SGC lever release and there is minimal change in position to operate the rifle.... even less with the MARS system.

It all depends upon the type of shooting you want to do.

[snayperskaya]

On the Dragunov topic, do you know anywhere I can get a bolt handle extender? I got one of the ICE bipod mounts which is great with the Harris but it just feels wrong so I normally stick with the Rusky bipod.

An AK extended bolt handle will fit or go "old skool" and jam a 7.62x39 case on there, pics below show AKs but you get the idea.





If your chamber is stepped (as mine is) you have a Russian domestic market barrel, the step is a requirement of Russian law enforcement so cases fired from a civilian rifle chambered in Russian military calibres (7.62x39, 5.45x39 and 54r) can be differentiated from those fired in a military chamber (no step).......they often find their way onto rifles destined for export, depending on what barrels are available at the factory.Saiga rifles are no different, some of them over here have the step and some don't.

Despite the step some of my PPU cases are on their third firing with neck sizing only (I do my reloading with a Lee Loader) with no problems regarding the step but they will be full length resized and checked before I use them again.Most of the time it gets fed a diet of Russian milsurp, with some Egyptian heavy ball and Hungarian tracer thrown in every now and again.After shooting milsurp I just flush the barrel with hot water to eliminate the corrosive salts and then dry, clean and oil as normal.Every so often I'll use Ballistol Robla Solo as part of the routine to clean out the copper etc and the barrel and chamber are spotless.

As for the SVDS......I did have both at one point but sold the SVDS on, with hindsight I wish I'd kept it!, but I did aquire the SKS as a result so not all bad.



I did have the Russian bipod but found that it wasn't the most stable of bipods, they are actually commercially made for Tigr rifles and not military issue.I found I got much more consistent accuracy shooting off a front beanbag rest
when paper-punching and when shooting at Sennybridge I usually shoot it offhand.

[Maggot]

The only "problem" with a straight pull is that you have to change your position considerably to pull the lever..... same applies to a bolt-action.

I have a 9mm SGC lever release and there is minimal change in position to operate the rifle.... even less with the MARS system.

It all depends upon the type of shooting you want to do.

Not entirely sure about this with a well built and fettled rifle.

IF you are shooting hot ammo such as RG you may need to yank on the lever a bit harder than most but certainly my BAR requires very little effort to cycle.

A few weeks back I was accused of having a semi auto but still managed a decent score, the point of the side lever is that you really only need to come off the trigger and cycle with a biathlon type flick. The handle is there to finger and easy to locate and operate while still on aim. This is the point of the side charging mod.

The main danger is that you short stroke or ride the bolt, both of which can cause misfeeds. Your eye should be glued to the sight picture not only to ensure follow through but also spotting fall of shot and awaiting the next target or getting back on aim.

In most positions (other than prone supported...or mag rested to some) my nose is touching the old T handle in order to insure consistent eye relief and position, this is common practice. A practiced rifleman with ammo that cycles well can produce surprising accuracy and consistency. This, along with reliability, is as likely why the various pseudo semi's don't dominate the league....along with cost. I understand the "Want" for something as close to semi auto was some can get, I see its advantage, but personally I would take a reliable and smooth rifle and practice with it any day, but you should not be moving your head or hands much with a straight pull AR that is well designed and loaded for.

I cannot comment on Baldies after sales service, I like Dave and would assume it to be good. Mark I know gives good after sales service and will take time out to fault find over the phone and will go the extra mile to iron a fault out, or show you what you did wrong and how to avoid it. This attention level applies to all rifles he deals with and not just his own creations.

[froggy]

AR15 vs MARS VZ58 ?

Pffff ........Neither !!
"Pretendy AR" and manual Vz are both are for pussies ...


What you want is one of those !!

[James84]

Looks like I'll be getting in touch with Oleg for an extender. I didn't realise he had them... Thanks for the heads up.

Maggot, thanks for the info. I've gone with a BAR due to location. Both seemed equal but it was the logical choice. Dave seemed really friendly and helpful.

That looks like something from the Royal Armouries down in Portsmouth?! Although it's not quite the Iraqi Super Gun they have...