Expanding for use in tubular magazines

[andrew375]

Not a myth at all. The issue is what the law actually says, not what various people want it to say. The law makes no mention of soft point or hollow point bullets, or indeed bullets! Instead it refers to "missiles designed to expand on impact". Whether a "missile does or doesn't "expand on impact" is irrelevant. We are trusted with Sierra match kings because the hollow point is not there to aid bullet expansion, whereas in the Game King bullet it is. The exemption for certain soft and hollow point bullets for use with rounds like .30-30 is that it is construed that the bullet is designed with that profile for safe use in a tubular magazine, therefore it was not specifically designed to "expand on impact".

[bradaz11]

I meant 'jacketed flat point'

3.16 refers to flat point and as you say cast lead and in particular flat point cast lead could be considered as expanding ammunition due to its characteristics. Perhaps I am missing something but I don't see reference to jacketed flat point even though that might be assumed from the reference to Match King. Question whether the drafter of this Guidance considers flat point lead to be expanding per se.

what? Jacketed flat point is sec1 too! do you mean jacketed hollow point?

[ColinR]

I mean those half jacketed bullets with exposed flat point lead - used to buy them a lot back in the pistol days. They were considered to be expanding even though they were not hollow point. The copper jacket had scores to aid expansion. I think they were probably called something like jacketed flat soft point. They were intended for hunting and gave better penetration with slower expansion.

[ColinR]

[quote="andrew375"]Not a myth at all. The issue is what the law actually says, not what various people want it to say. The law makes no mention of soft point or hollow point bullets, or indeed bullets! Instead it refers to "missiles designed to expand on impact". Whether a "missile does or doesn't "expand on impact" is irrelevant. We are trusted with Sierra match kings because the hollow point is not there to aid bullet expansion, whereas in the Game King bullet it is. The exemption for certain soft and hollow point bullets for use with rounds like .30-30 is that it is construed that the bullet is designed with that profile for safe use in a tubular magazine, therefore it was not specifically designed to "expand on impact".[/quote]

If that is the case and given the Marlin .357 is fundamentally the same functional design as a Winchester 30-30 U/L that exemption should also apply, but do RFD's generally acknowledge that? My experience is a firm no - not authorised on FAC, not authorised to buy.

[saddler]

[/b] If that is the case and given the Marlin .357 is fundamentally the same functional design as a Winchester....

Wash your mouth out! Winchesters are proper lever actions

...and WHICH of the many UK RFD's is in that role having passed all "the knowledge" exams with full marks & graduated from the RFD school with honours? Most don't know as they don't take the time nor do they have any interest in bothering to add to their knowledge = fewer brain cells then sheep - "Oh, what?....Er....I'll just phone the FEO to see what they say I can do..."

[bradaz11]

I mean those half jacketed bullets with exposed flat point lead - used to buy them a lot back in the pistol days. They were considered to be expanding even though they were not hollow point. The copper jacket had scores to aid expansion. I think they were probably called something like jacketed flat soft point. They were intended for hunting and gave better penetration with slower expansion.

You are describing soft point. Which is controlled. But can be used in tube guns

[ColinR]

Thanks everyone for the benefit of your knowledge. I think I understand now that expanding ammunition, because of the shape of the projectile, can be purchased as Section 1 for under levers with tube magazines. Problem would seem to be getting an RFD to understand the same Guidance notes and logic. I'll call around tomorrow and see what transpires.

[Sim G]

Show them the guidance. If they decide they're still not happy, shop elsewhere that does. Most decent RFDs are aware of the guidance and it's content.

[ColinR]

Show them the guidance. If they decide they're still not happy, shop elsewhere that does. Most decent RFDs are aware of the guidance and it's content.

And if they agree do these bullets need to be entered onto my FAC?

[saddler]

Show them the guidance. If they decide they're still not happy, shop elsewhere that does. Most decent RFDs are aware of the guidance and it's content.

And if they agree do these bullets need to be entered onto my FAC?

Bullets, no - live rounds, yes
The exemption means you don't need the condition on the FAC - and the condition is the part that asks for such components to be added/listed (even that varies from force to force)