S&B PM2 3-12x50 non IR

[Hunter87]

I will be using it on my sako TRG 22 for informal target shooting from 100 to 600 with the odd 1k shoot I just really don't like having the illumination knob on the side as it's a feature I wouldn't use. Would 3-12 limit me do you think?

[ovenpaa]

The Viking has a Kahles K312 (2-12X) on her 6,5-284 and that is fine for 1000 yards and even 1200, I shoot with my 4-16 S&B out to 1200 yards and it works admirably at 1000.

Yes there are people who will advocate higher magnifications for such distances however for informal shooting I would much sooner shoot lower magnification with good glass.

[HALODIN]

When you say it's fine at 1,000 yards, would you agree there are equally good scopes that offer significantly higher magnifications, for roughly the same price? As an example, my Kahles 624i can be bought (depends on retical) for approximately the same price (Euro dependent). I've never really understood the relatively high price for a low mag S&B scope.

[ovenpaa]

When you say it's fine at 1,000 yards, would you agree there are equally good scopes that offer significantly higher magnifications, for roughly the same price? As an example, my Kahles 624i can be bought (depends on retical) for approximately the same price (Euro dependent). I've never really understood the relatively high price for a low mag S&B scope.

I do agree the K424i is a superb 'scope and has a very usable level of magnification and optical clarity is good, I shot for a while with a Nightforce 42X Benchrest and detested it, the image was gloomy, it was like looking down a drain pipe, eye relief was poor and the turrets were nasty. It was very easy to loose yourself which is why I added a zero stop ring just to enable me to get to my zero easily without having to count turns.

I put 4 consecutive shots into an F Class bull at 1200 yards one very still summers afternoon, the final shot went low left much to the delight of the person I was shooting with who told me it confirmed his views that I was a crap shot That was with my Accuracy International chambered in 6,5x47 and 4-16 PMII wound right up. The ammunition was Lapua brass, pointed 123 grain Scenar's and a reasonable does of Varget behind.

As an aside I was out one day zeroing the Vikings M65A and headed out to 800 to put a few shots down range. The rifle was fitted with a German built S&B 12x56 something I had never seen before or since and my guess is from the early to mid 90's. The rifle shot well and all was good so I returned it to its slip and hauled out the AI with the 4-16 on it and was staggered by how poor the image was in comparison to the 12x56. OK it is not exactly a fair comparison however I still think it is one of the best I have ever used and although the rifle has gone the 'scope remains here awaiting a suitable partner.

[HALODIN]

Only 4!

I don't disagree lower mag S&B's are more than capable, my perspective was in terms of value for money. The Kahles 624i 6-24x56 is often compared to the S&B 5-25x56 in terms of capability. Whilst no one would criticise S&B, they charge a premium vis-à-vis over the competition.

[ovenpaa]

Value wise Kahles and S&B attract quite a premium used. I paid GBP1000 for my PMII second hand 10 years ago and it is probably worth about he same now so a reasonable investment financially as well as a tool. One thing I will say is S&B used to offer a lifetime/30 year warranty, these days I have a feeling it is 2 years original user only. Compare that to Vortex who offer a no quibble lifetime warranty so even if you have driven over the thing.

There are others on the market that make a good alternative, I personally like KAPS and ran one on another AI for many years, the rifle is gone however the 'scope is still with me and is another keeper. It is as much brand loyalty as anything and I will also always run an S&B.

[Hunter87]

I think I'm going to go with the 4-16x50 does anyone know if the can do it without the IR feature
Looks like a 14 week wait from optics trade EU.

[ovenpaa]

All I can say is yes they do exist without illumination and I would go for a single turn turrets, this gives 13,1 mils of elevation which will get a .308 to 1000 in any weather and 1200 yards on a warm day with a 26" barrel. I shoot single turn mils and find it incredibly intuitive and easy to use and you never get lost. You will need a 28 minute rail or ring set to get a near perfect 100m mechanical zero. I use Sportsmatch one piece rings.

[HALODIN]

This does seem to be the case with S&B. That isn't to say they haven't earned it, but as I said, you pay a premium.

It is as much brand loyalty as anything

[Hunter87]

I jjust have a few more questions and didn't want to start a new thread I'm going to go with the PM2 4-16x50 with single turn turrets (mil) my question is with a mechanical zero at 100 meters will I have enough elevation to get me out to 1k when using a 20moa rail and no moa rings or will I run out? The rifle will be a sako TRG In 308